I hope we can avoid more Slow Firing aswell.
It's just a pain and can these weapons really only be fired once every 30 mins? (Epic turns are 15 mins long).

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hmm...Not sure I agree with the need for support companies of 4: the whole 3/4bp issue really does make them pretty difficult to cost: and a battery of 12, just my personal taste, sounds immensely boring!

Although initially disliking stripping the shooting from the infantry I do think it's a brave and radical choice to make; and one that will make for a very fun army to play: i would more rather see companies that are going to be used defensively able to be upgraded with fire support, who perhaps would be a bit more slow moving.

Although Immobile in 40k i still think that we translate too much at times: Thudd and Mortars have wheels and i can see them being dragged when neccasary given the longer time scales of an epic turn.

With all this talk of infantry defending artillery i'd like to see a list that forces a player to make a choice about the role of each infantry company: attack or defend. Pure infantry companies can hop into their gorgons and footslog whereas those upgraded with firesupport end up stuck in their trenches due to the slowmoving nature of those units.  Otherwise I can see a whole load of infantry leaving little formations of machine guns etc just sitting there doing nothing; although in some ways it makes sense (and in others sounds like suicide!) It just doesn't feel very epic!

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Speed 0 does really make sense for these, they are way too big and heavy for their crew to drag by hand without a vehicle. Look at the model and see whether you think even three men could feasible pull such a weight of metal:


I'm not sure that transports for them should be mandatory - if they're not then it forces you to make a decision between keeping them in one place all game (likely behind a fortification) or adding light transports that bulk up the formation size but are very fragile light vehicles and go down quickly and are vulnerable to both sorts of fire (quite possibly discouraging these formations use in infantry companies at all). If you have seperate units of them and need to bulk them up to avoid popcorn perhaps add either the few transports or the same number of infantry stands.

I don't see the need to have to make support formations necessarily 4 just because that's the maximum numbers in W40k - represent the units and the feel of the army correctly for sure but with units sizes the much more important thing is doing what's right for epic gaming and not sticking obsessively to what's in W40k. The unit sizes are up to 4 and not required to be 4 in W40k no? And it's not like the W40k lists and rules really represent the background sizings or unit dispositions all that much anyway either and nor do many epic lists. Also with the way barrages work in epic unit size 3 means these smaller barrage weapons would be better with twice as many barrage templates hitting twice the target area that the larger more powerful weapons like the Basilisk or Medusa guns - surely this doesn't sound right? I vote for keeping them at 3 myself.

And for the second time please can you fix that download or host it elsewhere or something E&C? I have still never been able to download it and am meant to be playtesting it Sunday.

The 4 strong Field Artillery Battieres aren`t just only in the rules. They are in the Fluff. The TO&E of the Field Artillery Company shown in Vraks 1 shows 12 guns in 3 Batteries of 4 guns each.
I's a fluff thingie that the DeathK orps uses 4 strong Field Artillery Batteries instead of other regiments 3 strong ones.

Also with Speed 0cm you are technically able to drag the gun 5cm on a street even 15cm on a March order. Speed Immobile wouldn't allow this.

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Size is something of a red herring, effectiveness comes down to accuracy, destructiveness and rate of fire over the likely Epic time-frame (about 5-10 minutes of actual trigger time, the rest would be targeting, laying the gun etc).

Slow fire would only come in if the crew chomp regularly through all their ammo in 10 minutes or so.

The Baran Thud is a simple tubed infantry gun. Maybe even muzzle loading for simplicity, more complex options include having stacked rounds in tubes that fire off in patterns. To reload simply replace that barrel. Would give fast point fire but not enough weight of fire to be a barrage.

The gun shouldn't have multiple shots unless its capable of putting all those rounds on one target. If it spreads them out thats simply a higher point AP shot, if it spreads them out enough with a high rate of fire thats a bp shot.

Looking at the model it seems to use mortar bombs (the same as a mortar squad? Anyone got the models/can see on the site?) and just swap the high rate of mortar fire for the ability to lay 4 rounds at the same time.

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Deaht korps stormtroopers.



They do seem to be following the classical WWI German model...


As for the support stands, are twin stubbers it? The site has them with autocannon, mortar, twin heavy stubber and heavy bolters.

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The Death Korps Quad-launcher has a unique firing mechanism. I thas 4 barrels each canbe loaded with a shell and a shell in a magazine. So each barrel can fire twice and then must be reloaded which is stated as being complicated ans taking time.
2 x shots in Epic or 4 x slow-firing might represent this.
And no the shell sused by the Heavy Mortasr are way bigger than the ones used on the Quad-launcher. And the Quad-launcher shells are bigger as the infantry Mortar ones (Quad-launcher shells ahve Strength 5 Ap5, infantry Mortars have only Strength 4 Ap6)

Quad-Launcher crew:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/quadlcrew.htm
Quad-launcher:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/quadl1.htm

Heavy Mortar Crew:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/dkkartcrew.htm
Heavy Mortar:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/heavymort1.htm

Mortar:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/dkkmort.htm

Twin Heavy Stubber:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/dkkstub.htm

Twin Heavy Stubber, Autocannon, Lascannon, Heavy Bolter and Mortar are all Fire Support Teams. Three of them form a Fire Support Squad/unit.

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Twin Heavy Stubbers are 'iconic' to the Death Korps (they're the only army in 40k that are allowed such a low quality Heavy Weapon.

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This is standard - normal IG, Fire Support Teams, Space Marines, etc all actually have access to a range of various different weapons, but have these abstracted down to one stat in epic. I plan on modelling mine with a variety of heavy weapons, but ruleswise having them ad twin stubbers make sense and gets across the WW trenches feel.

I appreciate this, but really think it of little import for the list. I think epic game balance and unit sizes and structures that work for epic are of far greater import than what they happen to have put in the example unit diagram to illustrate the book - there are masses of inconsistencies between these things and both epic and W40k lists anyway, this would be nothing unusual.

I prefer if there wouldn't be any inconsistencies.

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I will look at accomodating the 4's, but at the least it will need a points split between the Heavy Mortars and the Quad Launchers.

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If its pumping out 2 lots of 4 shots, then being screw drivered apart I would say that's 2 shots at whatever AP/AT values you wish to apply.

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New thought: unlike other heavy weapon in other regiments which are crewed by 2 crewmen the Krieg support weapons are crewed by 5 men. Chroma suggested adding an extra infantry stand per gun to bulk up these small units and cut back of popcorning, BL wasn’t keen on adding extra infantry where troops would not be supposed to be.

However, what if you have this extra infantry stand in the unit per gun didn’t represent a tacked on infantry stand but rather the actual crew of the gun – 5 would be the right size and all the stats would match. Doing this the gun itself would have to be changed to CC and FF 0 to stop this making them better in assault than they should be and also the Centaur transport note would need to be modified to state it can carry one infantry stand and one Heavy Mortar / Thud Gun (which is correct to W40k).

It’s also worth nothing that the illustration of units makes it clear that it’s only a theoretical organisation of things, and the W40k list lets you take 1-4 Heavy Mortars / Thud Guns, so it’s certainly not the case that Krieg must or always take 4 and 3 is a perfectly viable number. I’ll go with whatever E&C thinks, but I do dislike the idea  that 4 Heavy Mortars firing on a nearby unit would be twice as deadly as 3 Basilisk Platforms firing at them, it feels contrary to expectations and the powers the two should have. 4 would probably need a price rise too, cutting down a little on numbers across the army as a hole.

Well the Heavy Mortar is Strength 6, Ap4.
The Earthshaker is Strength 9, Ap 3.

BOTH wound infantry on 2+ (as Toughness 5+ Infantry is very very rare) and only power armour and equivalents (which are rare too outside of Space Marines) get an armour save (only the Earthshaker negate them)and BOTH have the same blast template.

So both guns are pretty similar against infantry only that Earthshakers have a vastly superior range and are much better against vehicles.

Shooting with 4 Heavy Mortars at short range IS more ffective than shooting with 3 Earthshakers at the same range.

But i like the idea of the Infantry representing the gun crews.  

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