Well, if the AA capabilities of a '4' ship Strike formation are considered too high, we could drop the Multi-lasers to AA6+ while keeping the Autocannon at AA5+ on both A/c. However, at 300 points that is a lot of points for a 4x AA capability, and with AA5+ that gives ~1.3 hits which does not sound too excessive.

Moscovian's point about cost is also valid. In a 3000 point game, you would only get three 'big' formations at 300 points which is no bad thing, while you would obviously get four of the medium sized Three ship formations at 225 each.

It sounds as though the general preference here is for formations that cost more and your point of rarity is also reasonable, so I guess it boils down to resilience (how many A/c), and how much cost.

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

I never thought that aircraft rearmed in epic when they left the table.  I thought turns only lasted 20 minutes of real time.  Not the few hours needed to rearm and refuel a fighter, or even a bomber.

It also reflects the reduced damage a squadron does in a single activation.  Ork fighta should have more than a single rocket attack and Marauders should be able to cover an entire formation with their bomb load.

On the stats.  I like the idea of the colossus having only a single 1 shot weapon.  It makes playing it much more tactical, since you can always stand it down as a dummy activation and you have to judge the best time to try to get it pass the enemy air defence.

If it is going to be the Elysian’s “titanâ€Â

_________________
Tyranid air marshal

Ginger, Lightning Strikes don't have an Autocannon, they just have the wingtip lascannons.  They already lose one AA5+ (should be AA6) attack for the underwing rockets.  The issue is that 4x 30cm AA5+ is still almost as good as a formation of Nightwings 6x 30cm AA5+, and it's BETTER than a flight of 2 TBolts, for what should be a dedicated ground-attack plane.  I prefer to keep the Strikes in 2-ship formations.


Why did the Lightning Autocannon go from AP5+/AT6+/AA6+ to just AA5+?  That really limits the effectiveness of the plane in ground attack, which is a real concern if your opponent takes no Air (and it's a 300-point formation!).

And, Underwing Rockets are AT4+, not AT5+.  I agree that 6x or more shots on the Marauder Destroyer is utter overkill, but if we're consolidating shots, shouldn't that be AT3+ (applying the usual +1 for "twinlinked")?

=====
I withdraw my previous request for "multilasers" on the wingtips, and replace it with a request for "Wingtip Lascannons, 30cm AT5+/AA5+, Fixed Forward" (I acknowledge my error on the Nightwing's AA abilities, and agree that a Lightning shouldn't have AA4+).  There was a comment in "Double Eagle" that the Lightning was a dogfighter, and danced in the skies, but the TBolt was a killer.  The TBolt should be individually better at ground attacks AND anti-aircraft than a basic Lightning, but the Lightning's better maneuverability and higher formation size should counteract that issue.

This would make Lightings look like this:
Lightning    4 for 300
Fighter
Armour 6+
Lightning Autocannon - 30cm   AP5+/AT6+/AA6+  Fxf
Wingtip Lascannons - 30cm AT5+/AA5+       Forward

_________________
"For the Lion and the Emperor!"

However, Lightning Strikes are dedicated tank-hunters.  It carries the wingtip lascannons and 6x hellstrikes in 40k (note: *no* AP capability):

Lightning Strike    2 for 200
Fighter/Bomber
Armour 6+
Wingtip Lascannons - 30cm  AT5+/AA5+       Forward
3x Underwing Rockets - 30cm AT4+    Fxf

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

good catch, I must have messed that up when transferring it over.



So, how about:

Lightning    4 for 300
Fighter
Armour 6+
Lightning Autocannon - 30cm  AA5+  Fxf
Twin Snub-nosed Lascannons - 30cm  AT5+/AA5+       Forward

Lightning Strike    2 for 200
Fighter/Bomber
Armour 6+
Twin Snub-nosed Lascannons - 30cm  AT5+/AA5+       Forward
2x Underwing Rockets - 30cm AT4+    Fxf

Marauder Destroyer     2 for 300
Bomber
Armour 4+
3x Twin Autocannons - 45cm AP4+/AT5+    Fxf
Twin Heavy Bolters - 15cm   AA5+
Twin Assault Cannon - 30cm AA4+       Rear Arc
2x Underwing Rocket Barrage - 30cm AT3+    Fxf

Marauder Colossus      1 for 150, 0-1 per army (to represent rarity of the Colossus Bomb)
Bomber
Armour 4+
Twin Heavy Bolter - 15cm AA5+
Twin Heavy Bolter - 15cm AA5+  Rear Arc
Colossus Bomb    15cm  3BP    MW, Orbital Template, One Shot

OR

Marauder Colossus      2 for 300
Armour 4+
Twin Heavy Bolter - 15cm AA5+
Twin Heavy Bolter - 15cm AA5+  Rear Arc
Colossus Bomb    15cm  2BP    MW

I would not want to be in a low flying Lightning strike when a MOAB goes off.

_________________
Tyranid air marshal

Schmitty,

The lightning stats seem Ok. The Interceptor majors on AA with some AT, while the Strikes kicks out good AT and minimal AA.

However, I am not happy with the proposed MD stats because the Long-range capabilites are just too good.
- @45cm the MD formation kicks out ~3.0 AP hits and ~2.0 AT hits
- @30cm you get an additional ~2.6 AT hits

The long-range weaponry really needs to be altered so you get limited long-range AT fire and greater AP/AT fire at closer ranges. Ignoring the defensive weapons a second, could we use something like

2x "Long-range-name"            - 45cm AT5+          Fxf
2x Underwing Rocket Barrage - 30cm AT3+            Fxf
3x "Close-range GP name"      - 15cm AP4+/AT6+    Fxf

These would give the following stats
@45cm ~1.3 AT hits total
@30cm ~4.0 AT hits total
@15cm ~5.0 AT hits and ~3.0 AP hits total

Effectively this is adding two weapons to the a/c while rearranging the relative ranges

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

Weighing in...

1. I would like us to work up the MD to have 5 shots. 3 autocannon (whatever we end up for stats) and 2 underwing rocket shots.

2. Lightning Interceptors. I know they carry lots of weapons that would allow us to make their stats just about anything that we want, but I would like to see us steer them to a reasonable AA fm of four, with possibly incidental AP attacks. This should be in the ~300 pt range. So we are agreeing to temper their capabilities in some areas to allow them to focus on a specific role.

3. Lightning Strike. These should be AT focused, two ship elements whose sole purpose it to attack AT. We should look at one AT attack from the wingtip lascannons and two AT attacks from the underwing rockets and see where that puts us.

4. I actually really like the Colossus + Escort package idea. Like a lot. I would prefer to limit it to Lightning Interceptors and make it one formation so the zoomies don't go off and abandon their charge. I agree with all of Ginger's FAQ.

5. If so, then we could drop the standard Marauder as I think this would be an interesting addition. If it works out, it might even encourage me to get a model of the Marauder Colossus.

6. Oh, and let's refer to the lascannons on the Lightnings as "wingtip lascannons". By doing that we describe where they are and what they are. If we create a new kind of lascannon (i.e. snub nosed) fluff heads will wonder where that came from. Not that it's a bad name, I just think that it's better not to provide an opportunity for confusion.

All these creative juices are coming up with some good gumbo.

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Actually the last stats shmitty puts out are reasonable

How about to make the Lightning Strike a Fighter instead of Fighter-bomber? This would represent the greater manouverability compared to the Thunderbolt.

And i wish we could redesign the Thunderbolts loadout to be the killer it should be...
In WH40k it has:
1 x Twin-Lascannon
2 x Twin Autocannon
posibillity of 4 Hellstrike Missiles or 4 Bombs.

But Epic [irony]magically transforms[/irony] them to:
1 x Stormbolter
1 x Multilaser
1 x Underwing Rockets


If we use the same [irony]magic[/irony] with the Lightning we would came up with:
1 x Multilaser (perhabs with AA4+ instead of 5+ because of the superior range)

And with the Lightning Strike:
2 x Underwing Rockets

Yea. This would be all they get...Formations of 3 would fit the fluff (which leans strongly to early WW2 RAF organisation).


Well the same [irony]magic[/irony] seems not to work on the Marauder. So shmittys last stats for the Marauder Destroyer would fit  

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

I agree BL, Schmitty's last stats for the Lightning were just about there.

Honda, I know you want to use the term "Multilaser" for the wingtip weapons, but we do hit a slight problem here because this weapon already exists on the TBolt and has different stats to those you desire, namely

Multilaser - 30cm AP5+/AT6+/AA5+  Fxf    

Whereas I believe you want something that can be used on both a/c with the following stats

Wing mounted "weapon" - 30cm AT5+/AA5+  Fxf

1) Which weapon is more appropriate for the Lightning, and should it be on both A/c?


Going with separate weapons for the moment and erring a little on the cautious side as required, I Honda is looking for something like:

Interceptor: (Formation 4, cost 300)
Fighter, Armour 6+
Autocannon                       - 30cm AA6+                     Fxf      (AA6+ for preference)
Wing mounted Multilaser   - 30cm AP5+/AT6+/AA5+  Fxf    

Giving the following stats,    AA ~2.0 hits, AP ~1.3 hits,  AT ~0.6 hits

Strike (Formation 2, cost 200)
Fighter Bomber, Armour 6+
Wing mounted "Heavy-laser"    - 30cm AT5+/AA5+  Fxf    
2x Underwing rockets                - 30cm AT4+           Fxf

Giving the following stats,     AA ~0.6 hits, AT ~2.6 hits

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

Ok, I'm getting that, "Yes we want to land, but let's keep circling the runway" feeling again.  

@Ginger: What ever we call the "wingtip" weapons (right now "oranges" even sounds good), they have to be on both aircraft and they need to have the equivalent stats, if we are going to be consistent.

Where the two aircraft diverge, is in what they also carry in addition to the wingtip  oranges (WTO).

i. Interceptor: A long range autocannon, which should provide additional AA and possibly incidental AP. Four aircraft in the formation.

ii. Strike: 6 x Hellstrike missiles, which we are simplifying as "underwing rockets" and have nominally stated to be 2 x AT4+. Two aircraft in the formation.

In both cases, what defines the role of the aircraft is not the WTO, but what they also carry for their mission.

If you are asking if we should go with the "Multi-laser" label because it has already been approved for another vehicle, then that's fine. Let's do it.

We have other big fish to fry.

Cheers,

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Honda, we hit similar issues with the MD and the "Underwing Rockets"

You are asking for the MD to have "3x Autocannon and 2x Underwing rockets", but the stats for the rockets are already set at 30cm. To give it a 45cm capability, this would mean using the Autocannon as the 'long-range' weaponry, and 6x 45cm shots is excessive.

2) Are you happy to let the MD have all its weapons set to 30cm??

If not, we need to use some alternative weapons configuration to give the formation some form of 45cm capability.

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

Ok, giving the Interceptor "Twin autocannon AA5+", and the Strike "2x Underwing rockets AT4+" while using the current "Multilaser" as the wingtip weapon on both gives the following stats

Interceptor (fm '4') AA ~2.6, AP ~ 1.3, AT ~0.6
Strike          (fm '2') AA ~0.6, AP ~ 0.6, AT ~2.3

Honda, does that work for you?

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

2) Are you happy to let the MD have all its weapons set to 30cm??

If not, we need to use some alternative weapons configuration to give the formation some form of 45cm capability.

_________________
Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment