| Brood Brother |
 |
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas
|
Ok, I?m going to address a number of notes/comments in general, then get a little more specific.
Rule #1: IA3 The Taros Campaign is the reference material from which this list was developed. Except for a very few circumstances (mostly deletions), what the TO&E shows for the Elysians is what they will have in the list.
Reason: When I first started this endeavour, I discovered that although I thought of Drop companies as conforming roughly to what FW produced in IA3, many others had widely varying opinions on how a list should be constructed. There?s nothing wrong with having differing opinions, but in order to prevent some of the circular discussions that I saw occurring in other lists at the time I started, I made a hard and fast rule that as closely as possible, the equipment in IA3 is what this list would feature.
Why? Again to focus players who wanted to play the kind of list that I was developing, to play and validate, not argue. Did I say that Elysians are blunt? 
So, that means that this list would not include super weapons to compensate for real or perceive weaknesses. This list does not have all the bases covered. It has gaps that you, as an Elysian general will have to find ways to work through. That doesn?t mean that it is a weak list or not competitive. It is, but developing an understanding of how to take advantage of the synergies that are built into the list will take some time. I say that from personal experience.
I have been trashed using the various versions of this list more than anyone around. However, I didn?t build a list so that I could find a way to beat everyone, I put the list together so that I could have fun and cause opponents fits during the game. The Elysian list is a fragile sledgehammer, but a sledgehammer nonetheless. It has the tools that it needs to get the job done, but it?s not obvious just looking at the list what those tools need to be. Some of it comes down to play style. If you don?t use your Elysians in an aggressive manner, you?ll die, pure and simple.
So, what does that mean as far as units goes? No volcano marauder, no Arvus, no super Pegasus lander to bring down huge formations safely. They?re not in the book, they won?t become part of the set of tools.
Now I?d like to mention something specific about the Arvus. It?s a cool looking model. There?s a problem with it, though in that it isn?t a combat vehicle. Also if you have a copy of IA3, the fluff is quite specific about the Valkyrie being the ?workhorse? of the Elysian forces. So, taking the emotion out of the equation (e.g. I ?love? the Arvus), it isn?t reasonable to assume that soldiers would choose a non-combat aircraft over a combat aircraft when going into harms way.
Now if you want to include the Arvus in a scenario, by all means, go for it, but it?s not going to get added to the list.
Competitiveness of the list: I hear your concerns, but based on some of the other comments, I am left with the impression that an examination of the Elysians has not taken place on the table yet. The Elysians don?t line up well with other lists that have all the toys. Neither do the Space Marines. That doesn?t mean that the list is incapable of winning.
I will develop a post or document (not sure of which just yet) that will go into my play test experiences with this list to help others get past the learning curve quicker than I did. I basically started testing on the boundaries (e.g. all drop troop companies) and have been working my way towards a more ?normalized? (for lack of a better term) list. So, I wasn?t surprised when I got beaten badly, I was testing for failure points. However, what I did learn along the way is that certain tactics worked well, certain formations worked well together, and that there were times when the list positively sparkled?and of late, I have even seen some wins. I?m seeing the synergies come together as I start doing more correct things vs. incorrect things.
The Elysians are not a beginners list. They are a finesse list, much like the Space Marines. I have learned that a lot of the guidelines that you need to play with to be successful with the Space Marines are the same one?s that you need to use to be successful with the Elysians.
Now to get to a few specifics:
Q: Why are the aircraft formations the size that they are?
A: The Elysians are heavily dependent on their air support to be successful. One can even read that in IA3, if you weren?t able to discern that from the list. So given that assumption, it is critical that the aircraft formations remain effective long enough (all things being equal, which they are not) to allow the Elysian general a chance to do what he/she needs to do. That means you either make them cheap like the Ork model or you find some way to make them stronger without borrowing from the Eldar model and getting really effective aircraft. So the formations started out as two ship flights, but after play testing, we realized that they were too fragile. So we bumped them up in unit count to make them more durable.
Comment: The Elysian list is the Imperial List that should have the largest variety of Naval Support available.
Response: I have just recently started adding the lunar to some lists. It has added value and it is cheap for what you get.
Comment: Definitely think the standard Marauder should be added as well as the Thunderbolt.
Response: We already did that and have removed them as a result of testing and comments from other players. No one ever took them and until the time that the ERC reviews all aircraft to address some potential balance issues, then these won?t be included. Besides the FW Marauder Destroyer and the Lightning are the coolest looking Imperial aircraft there are.
Comment:
Focused fire on Warhound Titan Pack in one turn using just the Aircraft (not including the Spacecraft), assume Void Shields dropped by unit of Valkyries. Total DC of 6.
11 hits - 3.67 saved - 2.44 saved - 4.888 good hits... so roughly 5, killing one Wahound, significantly damaging the other.
Reaver Titan - 2.75 good hits, may bring it down to DC 3 on average.
Warhound - (going to need to add firepower to kill 2 more Void Shields from somewhere) - 2.75 good hits, may bring it down to DC 5 on average.
Gargant - as hard as the Warlord, Great Gargant even harder.
Response:
Although I appreciate what you are attempting to do, statistics by themselves do not tell the entire story. In a recent game, I brought down a double Warhound formation and single Warhound using timing and coordinated attacks from drop troop companies, storm troopers, and the MM armed Sentinels. The Elysians are a FF oriented army. If you do not take advantage of supporting fire in your assaults, then you will find the formations extremely fragile.
Now, I will be the first to admit that I have not attempted to take out larger Titans yet, but at the same time, I don?t think a competent general should necessarily look for the most difficult task facing him/her and then try to prove that they can better it.
Epic is not just about killing things. That?s what keeps people on their toes with the Elysians, with their high mobility, if I let you kill lots of stuff, but win two objectives in the game to your zero, then I win.
Also, as with pure airborne forces today, there are specific roles that they excel at, and then there are those that they are destined to fail at. The Elysians will never be a take on all comers list.
Comment: The list is very fluffy - just not competitive, it needs some kind of edge.
Response: This has yet to be determined. I am (along with others) planning an extensive testing period for this list over the next 9 months. The purpose will be to prove whether or not it is capable of sustaining itself in a tournament situation.
_________________
Honda
"Remember Taros? We do"
- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment
|
|
