Tactical Command
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DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.3
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=29390		 Page 4 of 14
Author:  Alf O'Mega [ Mon May 11, 2015 7:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
I'm a bit slow to seriously considering the Deathstrike silo stats but it did occur to me that it's very similar in role to a hive nest from the epic UK tyranid list. That runs at DC3 4+ RA, fearless, leader and TRA for 175 points including 4 Termagants at 15 points each. Is the silo really so over powered for pretty much 135 points more? I don't really think it is compared to that. It's already penalised by maxing out at 6 Titan killer hits per turn. I honestly think changing FF to 5+ is probably sufficient, I'm not *that* fussed but that's my opinion.

No harm in playing about with the death riders, although with these stats they basically become improved infantry for a comparable cost - certainly worth the spam test!

Otherwise - though, good to see the list getting some tweaks.
Author:  mordoten [ Mon May 11, 2015 9:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
Good changes to everything except the Missille silo special rule. Slow firing seems easier and more appropriate.
Author:  scourn99 [ Tue May 12, 2015 3:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
Still not getting the Deathstrike change. Being a silo made it pretty unique and it felt fine in the old list. It should remain slow firing, but im fine with the DC of 2 if looking to balance it.

Honestly it at max will get 2 shots a game. turn 1 and if it survives, turn 3. Even at DC 3. It is very easily killable and more so to break it. For 50 less points in Steel Legion, you can take 2 DS and shoot them both turn 1.
Author:  Beefcake4000 [ Tue May 12, 2015 6:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
scourn99 wrote:
Still not getting the Deathstrike change. Being a silo made it pretty unique and it felt fine in the old list. It should remain slow firing, but im fine with the DC of 2 if looking to balance it.

Honestly it at max will get 2 shots a game. turn 1 and if it survives, turn 3. Even at DC 3. It is very easily killable and more so to break it. For 50 less points in Steel Legion, you can take 2 DS and shoot them both turn 1.


Agreed, it seems the reinforced is a fair trade off for lack of movement, the rest doesn't make sense to me.
Author:  Matt-Shadowlord [ Tue May 12, 2015 6:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
Beefcake4000 wrote:
scourn99 wrote:
Still not getting the Deathstrike change. Being a silo made it pretty unique and it felt fine in the old list. It should remain slow firing, but im fine with the DC of 2 if looking to balance it.

Honestly it at max will get 2 shots a game. turn 1 and if it survives, turn 3. Even at DC 3. It is very easily killable and more so to break it. For 50 less points in Steel Legion, you can take 2 DS and shoot them both turn 1.


Agreed, it seems the reinforced is a fair trade off for lack of movement, the rest doesn't make sense to me.


The death strike is the Krieg formation that gets the second most amount of objections from opponents, after the Gorgons. The reason for this is that while it is absolutely true that the Steel Legion one packs more of a punch and that 2 DS in turn one are much better than one every two turns, the DS is seen as too hard to break and an overly-efficient blitz-guard for the points.

So what I am trying to achieve here is an alternative Silo that is easier to break and easier to kill. Its downgrade is deliberate.
To make up for the fact that it's easer to break and kill, these rules mean that it doesn't have to survive and be unbroken in turn 3 in order to fire its second missile; it might be able to finish its payload in turn 2.

The DS Silo's critics get what they want; a less auto-include blitzguard and an easier target to deal with.
The Krieg players get a Silo that's considerably less likely to survive the game, but has a decent chance to fire both of its missiles.

It's intended as a happy compromise, while remaining thematic to the Krieg army.
Author:  Matt-Shadowlord [ Tue May 12, 2015 7:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
Borka wrote:
Seems like mostly good changes, but... ;)
I'd rather see the cavalry become better in CC than shooting (FF). From knowing the importance of FF in epic, then your suggestion probably makes them more competitive though.


They'd be more competitive than they currently are, but in the majority of scenarios they wouldn't be as good as Rough Riders.

Fortunately it is only IG Rough Riders that the Death Riders really need to be balanced against, so comparison is made easier. Here's a quick comparison of 4 scenarios:

All in close combat
6 Rough Riders in close combat:
3 First Strike hits, 3 normal hits.

6 Death Riders:
3 First Strike hits. 0 normal hits

First strike in close combat, finish in Firefight
If their CC targets are all wiped out by the first strikes, the RR then do 6 normal firefight attacks to any remaining enemies; 1 hit.

If their CC targets are all wiped out by the first strikes, the Death Riders do no more attacks so can't use their FF value.

Half in close combat, half in Firefight
If half the formation gets into CC and Half the formation has to firefight (this isn't too uncommon)
3 Rough Riders do 1.5 Firststrike hits, then 1.5 normal hits. The 3 remaining RR do .5 firefight hits.
= 3.5 hits

3 Death Riders do 1.5 Firststrike hits. The 3 remaining RR do 1 firefight hit.
= 2.5 hits.

Zero in Close Combat
If no units make it to Close combat, 6 Rough Riders do 1 hit.
6 Death Riders do 2 hits.


As you can see, the only time Death Riders would do better than Rough Riders is if no units make it to close combat, at which point both formation's damage output is so poor that it is clearly not an ideal use of the units.
It would be simpler just to give them an identical statline to Rough Riders, but this 'Special Weapons' improvement
might improve them sufficiently to make them appealing while keeping them unique and 'Krieg'.
At the very least I'd love to see it playtested a couple times before just making them into carbon copies of Rough Riders.

Thanks for the feedback so far.
Author:  novemberrain [ Tue May 12, 2015 8:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
Beefcake4000 wrote:
scourn99 wrote:
the DS is seen as too hard to break and an overly-efficient blitz-guard for the points.



Could you not just pop in a note saying it cannot claim / contest objectives?
Author:  Alf O'Mega [ Tue May 12, 2015 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
I'm not totally convinced that the silo is too good for it's points at the moment when the Hive Nest exists for around 115 - I'm not saying it necessarily isn't but and I realise the Hive Nest exists in an epicUK list but I do think it should be considered
Author:  Fudd [ Tue May 12, 2015 11:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
Much happier with this version of the revision, thanks Matt.

On to the play testing.
Author:  scourn99 [ Tue May 12, 2015 11:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
Beefcake4000 wrote:
scourn99 wrote:
Still not getting the Deathstrike change. Being a silo made it pretty unique and it felt fine in the old list. It should remain slow firing, but im fine with the DC of 2 if looking to balance it.

Honestly it at max will get 2 shots a game. turn 1 and if it survives, turn 3. Even at DC 3. It is very easily killable and more so to break it. For 50 less points in Steel Legion, you can take 2 DS and shoot them both turn 1.


Agreed, it seems the reinforced is a fair trade off for lack of movement, the rest doesn't make sense to me.


The death strike is the Krieg formation that gets the second most amount of objections from opponents, after the Gorgons. The reason for this is that while it is absolutely true that the Steel Legion one packs more of a punch and that 2 DS in turn one are much better than one every two turns, the DS is seen as too hard to break and an overly-efficient blitz-guard for the points.

So what I am trying to achieve here is an alternative Silo that is easier to break and easier to kill. Its downgrade is deliberate.
To make up for the fact that it's easer to break and kill, these rules mean that it doesn't have to survive and be unbroken in turn 3 in order to fire its second missile; it might be able to finish its payload in turn 2.

The DS Silo's critics get what they want; a less auto-include blitzguard and an easier target to deal with.
The Krieg players get a Silo that's considerably less likely to survive the game, but has a decent chance to fire both of its missiles.

It's intended as a happy compromise, while remaining thematic to the Krieg army.



I really have to disagree here. Im all for balance, but I have to really question how a immobile DS launcher that could only fire every other turn be THAT game breaking for anyone who played agaisnt DKoK.

Terminators kill it, Other Indirect fire kill it. Its deadly, but not as much as I think people make it out to be. Most of the time it can pop a DC vehicle and only has a 50% chance to do it. Slim chance to kill a warhound titan and thats one of the weakest. Im not going to sit and do math here, but the suggestion I and others have said is a compromise while still making the unit worth taking.

DC 2, 4+ RA slow to fire.

As stated, it might get two off a game, thats a penality enough and makes you protect it if you want it. In its current form id never take it.
Author:  Onyx [ Tue May 12, 2015 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
scourn99 - remember that the DS silo can start a game garrisoned on Overwatch.
All up, yeah the original DS Silo was way to powerful and needed to be nerfed in some way.

Slow Firing and 2DC might be a solution as is what Matt has come up with.

As for the other changes, I think they are good.
No one seems to have mentioned that DK Rough Riders have a 5+ armour save compared to the 6+ of the Steel Legion riders. Another point of difference.

Good work Matt so far.

*edit - Just to note that it's still possible to make a 10 activation army at 3000pts which includes 3 of the Gorgon transported infantry formations (1 with Mortars), ground based AA, a Shadowsword, a DS silo, Scout Riders, 2x Warhounds and T/bolts. This is probably still too many activations for this list to be fairly balanced and playable (for the Krieg opponent).
Author:  Alf O'Mega [ Tue May 12, 2015 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
Someone's going to have to spell out why the silo is so OP compared to a Hive Nest for me - if it's garrisoned it's not on the blitz and at DC2 if it gets prepped then engaged, without fearless it will go down quite easily, even at DC3 without fearless it's going down under those circumstances. If it goes to DC2 it should probably gain fearless.

Starting on overwatch is strong but against many targets they're going to need their shields to be stripped first which is a mitigating factor. I don't know, I just have a hard time accepting that it's "way" OP even as it is, it seems fairly comparable to the other unit in the game which has similar stats in another horde type army.

Could someone please spell it out it in "Deathstrike Silo for Dummies" terms for me?
Author:  mordoten [ Tue May 12, 2015 12:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
Maybe you shouldn't compare it to a hive nest since both armies play differently and both units do different things.

Don't compare apples and oranges.
Author:  Onyx [ Tue May 12, 2015 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
Alf O'Mega wrote:
Someone's going to have to spell out why the silo is so OP compared to a Hive Nest for me - if it's garrisoned it's not on the blitz and at DC2 if it gets prepped then engaged, without fearless it will go down quite easily, even at DC3 without fearless it's going down under those circumstances. If it goes to DC2 it should probably gain fearless.

Are you aware that a formation can Garrison on it's own Blitz? It can.
A Hive Nest cannot send titan killing shots anywhere on the board.
A DS Silo is almost always Fearless once the obligatory Commissar has been assigned.

*edit - There are many war engines that don't have shields - Thunderhawks and Space Marine Landing craft for example.
Author:  Matt-Shadowlord [ Tue May 12, 2015 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: DEATH KORPS: Revision V1.1
As Steve mentioned, it can be made Fearless by the addition of a Commissar. Adding a commissar to a DC2 unit might be less of a no-brainer than adding one to a DC3, but it's still one of the best places to add one of your commissars so I pretty much assume it's a given.

scourn99 wrote:
Terminators kill it, Other Indirect fire kill it. Its deadly, but not as much as I think people make it out to be. Most of the time it can pop a DC vehicle and only has a 50% chance to do it. Slim chance to kill a warhound titan and thats one of the weakest. Im not going to sit and do math here, but the suggestion I and others have said is a compromise while still making the unit worth taking.

DC 2, 4+ RA slow to fire.

As stated, it might get two off a game, thats a penality enough and makes you protect it if you want it. In its current form id never take it.


Hi Scourn99, you might not have understood the current form fully.
The difference between the "DC2, 4+ RA slow to fire" you propose and the 1.1 version is that the 1.1 can fire its second missile on turn 2 instead of waiting for turn 3.
In other words, except in a rare 5 turn game it is slightly better than the one you say you'd prefer, and more likely to fire twice before it dies.

I hope that helps.
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