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The Stormhammer SHT

 Post subject: The Stormhammer SHT
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:40 pm 
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OK...  :oo:

So what are you saying?

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 Post subject: The Stormhammer SHT
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:12 pm 
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He's saying Stormhammers are too powerful, and also that the Conqueror Company is too powerful.

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 Post subject: The Stormhammer SHT
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:24 pm 
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Oh and Rug I'd appreciate your thoughts on Epic:Siege before we go to print if possible (Link to latest version in my .sig)

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 Post subject: The Stormhammer SHT
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:01 pm 
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Ok, thanks for the translation (What was it about the biggest separation between the U.S. and England is the language?  :laugh: ). Whew!

Rug, you are saying the Stormhammer is too powerful.  We already know that.  What can we do to push it into this FF slot that will make it balanced?  

FF3+ will hit an average of 6 times with a Stormhammer Company.  A FF4+ with one extra attack will hit an average of 6 times with a Stormhammer Company, although obviously the distribution will be wider on this variation.  

And if we're looking at a Firefighting SHT, how do we arm the rest of it so it is appropriately balanced?

(And we'll deal with the Conqueror issue on another thread - try to stay focused, folks!)

EDIT - we crossposted, Rug.  Thanks for the clarification. See above and let me know your thoughts on the way forward.




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 Post subject: The Stormhammer SHT
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:51 pm 
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It sounds elegant, but I really think 10cm speed is not feasible.

With respect to its role, if the Stormhammer is to be close support and FF, a slow speed is not going to work.  It will, in fact, cripple it as a FF platform.  Believe me, I love my 10cm move Ork Big Gunz, but they only get to FF range occasionally and only because all they do is double-double-double.

Also, it ceases to work well in conjunction with any of the other SHT platforms.  A 33% reduction in speed is substantial so mixed companies take a big hit.


I definitely favor TRA.  I don't think it's going to be much of a boost. boost.  If this is a close support/assault tank, it's going to be near the front and among the first subject to MW/TK.  Also, TRA is ineffective in assaults.  It's mostly for flavor.

==

To number-crunch it a bit...

The Stormhammer has roughly 2.5x the firepower of a Leman Russ, so as a company, about 75% of the Russ company firepower at a bit shorter range.  It's only 9DC and can suffer from critical hits, but it has the advantages of being WEs for suppression so it's almost as tough.  It also has better assault, being able to (almost) always choose FF.  That makes it more resistant to assaults than Russ (along with WE resistance to clipping) and it gives them a different offensive option to fill in the gap in defense and make up for the slightly shorter range.  Finally, they have the advantages of a WE formation for coherency which should just about balance them out with respect to area control.

So, let's say roughly equal toughness and movement and 75% of the Russ offense and 95% of the move/maneuver options.  Using the square root rule, that gives...

SQRT(.75*.95) * 650 [russ co cost] = ~550 points.

No surprise.  Everyone seems to agree they are overpowered.

To make the numbers look about right, the Stormhammer Co would need to have 60-65% of the Russ company firepower.  So, that's firepower equal to about 2 Leman Russ instead of 2.5.


It won't take much to make that happen.  Dropping some of the smaller turrets will do it.  Just dropping 2 of the lascannons would get it most of the way there, though some other small cut would be in order.  Lots of options would work.  It's just a matter of choosing an appropriate, flavorful combination of downgrades.

* Change the battlecannons to something less potent, e.g. the Conqueror idea someone posted.
* Change 4x bolter/4x las to 2x twin-bolter and 2x twin-las.
* Make it WYSIWYG and drop all the Lascannons.\
* Whatever else




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 Post subject: The Stormhammer SHT
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:44 pm 
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Quote: (nealhunt @ 24 Mar. 2009, 14:51 )

With respect to its role, if the Stormhammer is to be close support and FF, a slow speed is not going to work.  It will, in fact, cripple it as a FF platform.  Believe me, I love my 10cm move Ork Big Gunz, but they only get to FF range occasionally and only because all they do is double-double-double.

Also, it ceases to work well in conjunction with any of the other SHT platforms.  A 33% reduction in speed is substantial so mixed companies take a big hit.

With this point about speed I disagree. 10 cm movement doesn't slow it a great amount from the already very slow SHT's. Mixed into a company the only real problem would be leaving it behind, which is negated by the fact that it has a 15cm command radius and so three turns of standard movement and it's still within coherency of the next tank along.
Also, the addition of any smaller tank into the company (Especially the incredibly useful Leman Russ') means gaps can easily be bridged with smaller, faster tanks.

I've played a number of games with the Stormhammer reduced to 10cm movement and it has made such a small difference I feel just this change wouldn't limit its effectiveness enough to balance it.

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 Post subject: The Stormhammer SHT
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:08 pm 
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Out of curiosity, are the Stormhammer-heavy lists actually causing play imbalance?  Do they feel unfair to opponents?

I suppose I'm asking whether this is an internal balance issue or an external issue.

In my very few Minervan games, they have been among the most effective SHTs, but not unbalanced overall.

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 Post subject: The Stormhammer SHT
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:01 pm 
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I believe the Stormhammers to be internally imbalanced.  Quite honestly I have not seen this translate into an overwhelming win ratio for the Minervans.  The list itself is somewhat rigid and from the results we've had plus the posts online, the Minervans shouldn't be called overpowered by any stretch.  If somebody has a different experience I'd love to hear it.

With that said, the SHT's under the current pricing really should be balanced against each other.  It's akin to the Warp Spiders for the Eldar: They don't cause the Eldar to win handily everytime, but how many tournament lists have you seen that DIDN'T include them?  They are the obvious choice for anyone taking Aspects (I of course always take Shining Spears but only because they look cooler and I like the idea of them skewering Russes :devil: ).

There are other issues with the list, but this one is the most glaring.

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 Post subject: The Stormhammer SHT
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:06 pm 
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Scarik used a company at last year's NE tourney. That's the extent I've seen them played.

They dropped a heck of a lot of dice (Matt still has nightmare's :p). I agree with what Mosc. said, they're just better in comparison to your other choices.

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 Post subject: The Stormhammer SHT
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:01 am 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 23 Mar. 2009, 20:16 )

The Stormhammer is the 'short range/Firefight' SHT.

I agree.
We could focus it on close range support by decreasing its range to 30cm, and improving its FF value.
Something like 3+ FF 1 or 2 extra attacks, and of course, replace the lascannon with heavy bolters.

Something like that (it's just a starting draft):

Code Sample: 
STORMHAMMER (ACACIUS PATTERN)
Type         Speed   Armour   Close Combat Firefight
War Engine   15cm    4+       6+           3+

Weapons                                Range  Firepower      Notes
2 x Twin Snub Battlecannons            30cm   AP2+/AT2+        -                                  
4 x Heavy Bolters                      30cm   AP5+             -
array of boltguns                      (15cm)  Small Arms   Extra Attacks (+1)

Damage Capacity 3. Critical Hit: The Stormhammer’s magazine explodes. The Stormhammer is destroyed, and any units within 5cm of the model suffer a hit on a D6 roll of 6+.
Notes: Reinforced Armor, Thick Rear Armour






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 Post subject: The Stormhammer SHT
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:04 am 
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If extra attacks are given, it would probably make sense to assign them to the array of boltguns the original was supposed to be armed with.

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 Post subject: The Stormhammer SHT
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:12 am 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 26 Mar. 2009, 00:04 )

If extra attacks are given, it would probably make sense to assign them to the array of boltguns the original was supposed to be armed with.

Not unlike the Hurricane Bolters on the Land Raider Crusader.

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 Post subject: The Stormhammer SHT
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:19 am 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 26 Mar. 2009, 00:12 )

Quote: (zombocom @ 26 Mar. 2009, 00:04 )

If extra attacks are given, it would probably make sense to assign them to the array of boltguns the original was supposed to be armed with.

Not unlike the Hurricane Bolters on the Land Raider Crusader.

Precisely.

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