Heh heh, you can't win Chroma.

Honestly speaking, I think we need just one list - but I think the horde-o-guardsmen is not really the feel of Cadia. Personally, I would big up the "elite" feel for the army. Companies of Kasrkin (i.e. stormtroopers) backed up by large numbers of vultures with companies of guardsmen in support. Lots of chimera, valkyries and vultures. Add the limited Inquistorial elements and we have a neat little variant.

I think the defensivel line force with large amounts of infantry and tanks and fortifications is okay, but how different is that from siegemasters, Death Corps, Steel Legion, so on and so forth?

If you are really keen to make a defensive line formation then I suggest that you do go back to two lists. Personally, however, I would go for the "shock troops" element with elite guard - the defensive line can be turned into a scenario where you can add all of the defensive fortifications, so on and so forth.

I think the tough part is carving out a niche for the Cadians that hasn't been filled by other lists and - let's face it - we are running low on niches.  

Steel Legion is your well rounded force
Siegemasters is your defensive force
Krieg is your... other defensive force/WWI type
Minervan is your armored force
Elysian is your elite force/valkyrie & vulture force

If you are going to stick with one list for the Cadians, your best bet is to work with something that is going to distinguish itself from the rest of the lists.  Unfortunately the elite force thing and the defensive thing is already 'filled' in a sense, so I think you have a challenge ahead of you.

Of course, there are other ways of distinguishing the list.  A special rule or two will assist in that, as would adding units exclusive to the Cadians.  Are there any Forgeworld models that have not been featured in the other lists that you can use in the Cadian list?  Now that could also mean MODELING for some people and be a natural turn-off, but I think you'd be better off with a list that requires some minor modeling/kit bashing.  Perhaps going through the Cadian 40K stuff to see what unique things they have and attempting to transfer them over.

Just suggestions.

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Unique things:
Sanctioned Psykers
Conscripts
Leviathan/Capitol Imperialis

Ok the last two are chared with the Steel Legion PDF which in itself is a less-elite but mechanised army.

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Sanctioned Psykers
Conscripts
Leviathan/Capitol Imperialis
Ok the last two are chared with the Steel Legion PDF which in itself is a less-elite but mechanised army.

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one question, why is the whiteshield formation cheaper than an infantry company? Am I missing something here?

Intitative 3+, it means they are a *lot* less reliable... inexperienced as it were...

So, Moscovian, you do see the "same units, distinct differences" in the two lists?

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I'd call Krieg the "elite" (and I use that term loosely) defensive list, with higher tech and some better infantry options than Baran.

And don't forget the Deathworld/Catachan/Ork Hunters - elite groundpounders.


The only remaining concept I can think of that's untaken is elite mech infantry (unless you want to count tunnelers...).  I think that fits the Cadians best.  It has the benefit of fitting with the Leviathan/CI mobile command concept.

If you want to run defensive scenarios for Cadians, that's easy enough.  Just give them an option for trading Chimeras for fortifications in the scenario.  As people have noted, it's the defensive list that has the most overlap in feel with other lists, so it's probably the least needed.

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Neal

Okay, I had a chance to actually go through these lists and I put together some of my thoughts.

In regard to the two lists
I think the two list idea is not bad.  I am not sold on it either but I am certainly not opposed to it strongly.  The only thought that comes to mind is that having two Imperial lists makes it that much harder for another Imperial list to distinguish itself, either in this supplement with the Inquisition or another supplement down the road.  Rare is the day I agree with Zombocom    but I share his sentiment that it just feels wrong.  I simply can't put any real concrete argument together against it.  

Things I like
I like the larger Sentinel formations.  It keeps the army from getting too 'popcorny'  (can I use that as a word? ) and the figures always appealed to me.

I like the reduced amount of armor on the list itself.  You can still see SHTs and LR tanks but obviously not in the numbers you would in Steel Legion.

I like the Whiteshields* (see below) in general.

I like the Sanctioned Psykers, although I wonder if they would be better off as separate units unlike a Commissar.  Not because they are balanced poorly - only for the sake of modeling and playing.  Epic players may want to field them as models and it is easier to drop a unit into a formation than just marking it or premodeling things.  It just gets a little complicated with the Commissars AND the Psykers falling into the same type of situation model-wise.  I am curious what other people think...

Things I would possibly change
I'm not sure there is enough of a distinction on the list itself between Whiteshields and regular infantry.  It may behoove you to come up with a separate datafax and descriptor for them (Whiteshield Infantry should do fine).  Otherwise confusion may take place (see the post above from Mephiston).  

I'm not sure the Sappers need to be in the list, although I'll let the fluffmasters debate over that one.  My feeling on it is if they don't appear in the fluff, remove them.  

It may be interesting to remove the Death Strikes from the list.  Heaven forbid there be no Death Strikes but according to Armageddon...
Deathstrike batteries have become an increasingly rare sight on Imperial battlefields; the size and logistics of their deployment often seeing them overlooked in favour of more
mobile units such as the Manticore.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Happy to playtest them with you next time you can make it down to Nightowls. I know you said you were busy the next couople of weekends, so we could probably arrange a game come the new year.

We might have to do playtest list vs playtest list though if we also want to fit in playtests of AMTL and Minervan lists.

Cheers

James

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Surely conscripts (which are iconically cadian) deserve their own set of stats (FF6+ no ranged shots?) instead of just being dimwitted normal guard?`

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Isn't "dim-witted normal guard" precisely what conscripts are?

Jervis specifically mentions in the EPIC rulebook that a change in Inititive Rating can be used to easily indicate green or inferior troops; this allows Whiteshield/Conscripts to be used without creating yet another unit.

In 40k they have one heavy weapon and one special weapon per 10 men, just like regular Guard, without quite as many options, they shoot and fight more poorly and have worse leadership... failing to sustain fire or assault as often as "regular" Guard and having a harder time reorganizing after being beaten all sound appropriate to me.  

They're better equipped than Siege Infantry, who still have FF5+, just poorer shots, so that seems about right.

With even worse stats, they'll have to be awfully cheap to be a valid choice and that opens the door for spamming with them.

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The most important thing is that they have worse shooting in 40k imho.

Don't get me wrong, this way works too, it's just now how I'd visualise them. But hey, your list, your choice.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

I agree completely here. Although I would point out (no, I won't shut up about it just yet!) that the idea of an Interior Guard list with Inquisitorial elements also distinguishes it and fills the "Inquisition + Guard Allies" gap left by my removal of Guard allies from my Inquisitorial lists.

Once again, this is my idea of the Cadian list. It pretty much comprises Neal's "elite mech infantry" ideal, and is obviously based on Chroma's lists. Companies of Stormtroopers (kasrkin) lead either by kasrkin command with chimera or valkyrie transports, regular cadian shock troops (who should probably also have a chimera option) are the only companies. No tank, artillery or superheavy companies at all (although tanks, artillery and superheavies can be taken as company upgrades or support formations). The list also contains some limited Inquisitorial elements - these are outside the normal guard organisation (so you are free to select these formations, but they can't have company upgrades and taking them doesn't entitle you to any support formations. The choices are Kasrkin lead by an Inquisitor, Grey Knights and an Obsidian Fortress (this was instead of a Capitol Imperialis).

Note that my lists include:
Proper Kasrkin commanders and supreme commanders
Whiteshield units
Slightly less powerful sanctioned psykers (these psykers correspond to my Ordo Malleus sanctioned psykers)

Chroma,

I think you'll be better off putting in an additional datafax for the Whiteshields regardless of whether or not you have the same stats.  I think people are just going to get confused and ask "Hey where are the stats for the Whiteshields?" or -worse- not play them properly.  At a minimum a small note in the datafax could probably help clarify things.

When it comes time for printing, players will appreciate not having to swap books back and forth for checking on stats.  So adding duplicate Leman Russ, Snipers, Guard, etc. datafaxes is something you'll probably get stuck doing anyway.  Oddly enough I got criticized by several people for not including TITANS AND AIRCRAFT in the the Minervan units.

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