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Minervan Legion Updated
Moscovian
 Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:14 pm 
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We'll assume (for the moment) that your memory is intact.

So there you go: there should be a leader function on the Commissars.  Consider it the second errata for Raiders.  I'll try to have that fixed for the Firebase release too.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:27 pm 
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I suppose I could put the SC's Commissar in the same unit and have a super Stormhammer!


Aye, the Super Stormhammer with 5 FF3+ attacks is teh awesome. :D

I do feel that Minervan SCs can be used much more aggressively than Steel Legion, and I really do want to be sold on the army, but I struggle trying to get activations and if it wasn't for my love of Thunderbolts I'd be very low on formations.

Lack of activations is an intentional weakness for this otherwise-strong army list.

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scarik
 Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:32 pm 
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I'm going to try a list that goes heavy on stormhammers in an attempt to break them and see what they need.

They do feel better than the baneblade, but really what doesn't?

We may want to consider trying to make the Baneblade faster since its not that the Stormhammer is better, its tyhat every SHT is.

The Baneblade can reach out to 75, but that's not much of an advantage given the Stormhammer has a max of 6 shots at 45cm and and 4 at 30 and the Baneblade has 4 at 45cm and 4 more at 30.

The Stormhammer has both more medium range and more short range firepower AND is better in Engagements. All for the same cost and speed its a no brainer. Slower Storms will make them much less valuable, faster banes will make them more versatile as they could keep pace with Russes and drive for the blitz.

The Stormblade looks nice with its plasma blastgun, the Stormsword looks like junk with no AT power I can't think of many uses for it since even the Shadowsword can provide some AP, and if its one thing I noticed about the Minervans they have no shortage of AP killing power.

The Shadowsword is, as always, a wonderful tank which I specifically haven't used in the Minervans yet but which will surely creep in soon.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:40 pm 
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We may want to consider trying to make the Baneblade faster since its not that the Stormhammer is better, its tyhat every SHT is.


I believe that under all but a very few circumstances (Basically shooting at a 4+RA War Engine whilst moving), the Stormhammer at 15cm move is now the best SHT the IG can obtain, of the five variants, it is the very best.

I strongly support reducing its speed back to 10cm, as I set it at 10cm speed originally to balance its extreme medium / short range/ firefight firepower... with its speed raised to 15cm it becomes quite overpowered, especially in Companies.

I believe the other SHT's do have unique niches in which each tank finds its best role:

- Shadowsword - Anti-Titan SHT
- Baneblade - Best all-round SHT
- Stormblade - Best anti-(heavy)armour SHT
- Stormsword - Best anti-infantry SHT
- Stormhammer - Supposed to be the best short/medium range SHT, with speed balancing it, now it's simply the best SHT.  :rock:


the Stormsword looks like junk with no AT power

One of TRC's IG proposals which for some reason he didn't propose for the final Minervan update was to raise the range on the Stormsword's main gun to 45cm. I support this, as I've found the 30cm range Stormsword underperforms.

I hope your Minervans are rolling 6's. :)




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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:47 am 
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Quote: (Moscovian @ 16 Jun. 2008, 15:18 )

I believe he did advocate +15cm range for the Stormsword's main gun (From 30cm to 45cm), which did not make it into Raiders.

For the record I agree with that buff, in principle as the Stormsword's always been slightly sub-par ; It's nothing like as important as the Stormhammer issue, as underpowered units can be ignored for the purposes of an urgent eratta, it's overpowered units that cause problems.[/quote]


Actually, TRC didn't suggest that.  This was the big email I got from TRC and the range increase was not one of them.  I don't think I would have put it into play anyway but that isn't the point.  


Stormhammer. I didn't get the test it (or the assault gun thingy) so its just a feeling, but I can't see a range 30cm speed 15 tank making the cut for the current price.

Ah, this is I think a mis type by me. I wrote stormhammer instead of stormsword but the text refers to the stormsword (range 30 move 15 SHT). But tis a minor point and one underpowered unit is nothing to cry over.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:48 am 
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Quote: (Moscovian @ 16 Jun. 2008, 13:55 )

TRC, if you felt it was 'definitely' unbalanced why didn't you recommend changes prior to releasing the list?  I am a little concerned about this statement since -as the IG Champ- I gave your unit stat changes heavy weight and as I recall I instituted all of them.

Yes it is overpowered, this is simply because I was only looking at it from an underpowered point of view and made an error. I guess I must be human. In retrospect I see it is now to powerful, however I made an error when trying to correct its underpoweredness.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:59 am 
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I was only looking at it from an underpowered point of view and made an error. I guess I must be human.


Being human is fine.  Your earlier post though made it sound like you had always known it was overpowered and that it should have been obvious.  Had you prefaced your post to the effect of "In retrospect I've realized..." or similar fashion I probably wouldn't have been so miffed.

I've warned you ; This unit is heinously, terribly, utterly, broken.

When I get comments like this though all I can say is that at least two of those abverbs have nothing to do with me.  I found feedback on the Stormhammer being overpowered before I got the list but it was glossed over at the time.  

I suppose I could have delayed the release of Raiders yet another month while I completely familiarized myself with the Minervans but I took it on trust that the former Champ and the Imperial Guard Champ knew what was best for the list.  So we all made mistakes.  No big deal.  Let's move forward, okay?

So with that said, players are welcome to try to break the unit - fielding them in tandem with other SHTs might be a great way to illustrate their strengths.  I'll be listening and keeping track of things so when it comes time to re-evaluate the lists this will be the first unit I deal with I promise.

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Onyx
 Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:02 pm 
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It's very unlikely that I would use a SHT that only moved 10cm no matter how good it is.

I would, on the other hand, use a really good SHT which moves 15cm and that cost 225-250pts (for a single tank).
Is it possible to just increase the points on the Stormhammer by 25-50pts per tank and keep it at a usable speed?




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Moscovian
 Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:59 pm 
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Onyx, I tend to agree that a 10cm will just keep the unit from being fielded.  My initial thoughts on the piece are to either remove it completely from the list or move it to a collector's model status with some nerfed stats.  Increasing the points is on the table as well but that would complicate the list pricing (which is quite simple right now).  Your idea is certainly worth trying however.

My suggestion is to play it as it is priced and with the current stats before changing anything.  See how it plays first and then go from there.

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scarik
 Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:08 pm 
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I'll be getting a lot of use out of my IG as both Steel Legion and Minervans, I've now managed to dragged several friends and the CT tourney was the final effort needed to get Jill into Epic so I have lots of teaching to do this summer. ^^

I'll play it as costed in some and if it appears to be too good, I'll try tacking on +25points per 'hammer.

Against Jill's burgeoning WAAAGH! I suspect the 'hammers are going to cause tremendous grief.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:59 pm 
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I tend to agree that a 10cm will just keep the unit from being fielded.


I disagree ; It's a new type of unit (Ultra-slow, ultra-hard hitting SHT), and new tactics would evolve to best utilise it.

Or not. :)

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scarik
 Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:09 pm 
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New tactics like taking 'hammers in singles then attaching 3 Salamander Command vehicles so that it can Garrison?

I can't find anything in the rules that would make that illegal (other than good taste perhaps ^^)

And that's if you count WE's as units equal to their DC for Garrison, since it doesn't say one way or another I lean toward the intent being yes, correct me if I'm wrong though because I would totally put 3 Salamanders in a SHT company to Garrison it on OW...

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:20 pm 
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The spirit of the rules says:

'Don't be silly'  :)

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:25 pm 
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Nah you use it for baseline defence. Against frop or air assault armies very deadly. However its one dimensional so not a tourny vehicle at 10cm I feel (at least i would love to face them). Base line defence is instead often left to stuff like Shadowswords or infantry comapnies.

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scarik
 Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:25 am 
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The Spirit of the Rules also says "Fearless Charge was unintentional"

But since it took forever to fix that I'm gonna have to at least use Salamanders as a cheap way to Garrison things I have no right Garrisoning.

At the very least it will reinforce that they need a points increase.  :whistle:

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