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Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:24 am 
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I think that you should just make it 4+ RA and be done with it.


You've convinced me at last.

Consider the special rule gone.


You need to focus the list onto the theme, because it makes little sense to have four different types of super-heavy tank and no super-heavy tank companies.

It really does make sense to allow such a setup.

The Death Korps are well supplied, so they get the two standard Super-Heavies (Heck if the PDF Barrans somehow get them then the Death Korps should!) and they get the tank destroyer (It's a WW2 German tank destroyer... how could they not get it!) :)

But the Death Korps are also known users of reconstructed damaged tanks, so you also get the Stormsword and the Thunderer.

Just to make it clear, there is no fluff justification, at all, for having the Stormsword in the army but not the Shadowsword. You simply cannot have the former in an army unless it has the potential to have the latter. The same goes for Destroyers (Fluffwise they should be there) and Thunderers (Rebuilt damaged Destroyers).

As I've said before, the only superheavy which I'd personally consider for removal on fluff grounds is the Stormblade, as it's neither a common super-heavy nor a reconstructed super-heavy, but simply another super-heavy class that fulfills a third, separate battlefield role.

And now's a good place to repeat my opinion that the only reason the Steel Legion lacks all four super-heavies is due to inter-departmental rivalries and lack of funds on SG's part to put more models back into production.

And why no super-heavy tank companies?

Because we went infantry-themed with the list.

If you take s-h tank companies, then you also need normal tank companies, and then you're basically just mirroring the Steel Legion list with different equipment.

Are they infantry-heavy trenchers with large siege guns in support?

Yes they are, but they also have a decent ammount of armoured support.

They're not a PDF like the Barran Siegemasters (Who have a decent armoured capacity in any case), they're a well-equipped siege army, users of massed infantry formations most of the time, followed by the 'big push' at the end to break the siege.

The list represents that 'siegebreaker' stage, when the Death Korps bring all of their better weapons to bear (Which have been kept in reserve or only used lightly in support roles during the main siege).

That's why the list doesn't have the option for trenchworks... this is the 'offensive' siege mirror to the Barran's 'defensive'.


Are they equipped with rare tank variants, lots of superheavies?

They may not have a great amount of them, but they certainly have a greater choice in armoured support than the PDF Barrans (See also the upcoming Heavy Tanks based on the Gorgon chassis which are yet to be released).




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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:00 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Dec. 28 2006,18:24)
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You've convinced me at last.

Consider the special rule gone.

Woo.  :D

Okay, as to the rest: I see where you're getting at - they have a limited access to a wide variety of tanks.

Still, I don't think that works that well as a list, and it betrays the "feel".

If you can cut down the number of tanks at all, then it would help. If you lose the Stormblade (I agree, it is the least suitable of the 4) and the Conquerer (redundant as you have Laser Destoyers and least fits the theme out of the 5 variants), then you have only one more variant tank and heavy tank than the normal list, and that's a bit more paletable.

As for your opinion on internal GW policies (bickering?) being the source of the model choices, that's rather a moot point. You might well be right, but if all the other IG lists are built that way, you need a good reason to deviate from that: if the list requires a specific pattern then that's one thing, just because you like the models is another.

I'm not convinced about the lack of tank companies: for example, you could put tank companies in and limit them to one per infantry company or suchlike. Without them, I feel that the tanks are still confined to being "bitty" tangents to the list. As to similarities with the Steel Legion, the Death Korps are pretty similar...
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:16 am 
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If you lose the Stormblade


I'm not entirely certain it should be gone yet. It's certain Death Korps armies have access to it...

and the Conquerer

That went a while ago... you mean the Vanquisher? That's kept on fluff grounds (Few guard armies with access to Destroyers wouldn't have access to Vanquishers too, and the Death Korps are known to have both) and as it actually fulfills a different (And cheaper!) role to the Destroyer, that of general tank-combat rather than tank-hunting.

As to similarities with the Steel Legion, the Death Korps are pretty similar...

I was taking a heck of a lot of flak in earlier versions of this list over making the list basically an expanded Steel Legion list (Because the Death Korps as a whole have an exceptional ammount of options unavailable to normal Guard, plus much of the normal stuff too). Thus the split into Infantry & Armoured lists.

I've actually come to quite like this tank-lite Death Korps list.

Perhaps there could be a Special Rule that would allow you to apply Formation Upgrades to Support Formations (Coming out of the parent Company's allocation), which would let you build full tank Company sized formations, at the expense of burning off a decent ammount of Support slots in doing so?

Seems unnessesarily complex for me though.

As for your opinion on internal GW policies (bickering?)

More departmental economic competition and self-interest than simple bickering (GW is full of all the usual company politics of course).

you need a good reason to deviate from that:

Yep, I believe it's appropriate.

I don't just like the models, I like the background to be accurately represented.

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J0k3r
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:44 am 
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One question E&C- does it necessarily follow that SHT companies should lead to the inclusion of full LR companies?  Given that SHT are the hallmark of the DK it could make sense for them to be the only tank based company....

Just for the record I think the current list is a marked improvement over the "all-in-one" list which was too close to the steel legion list, however Inquisitor lord may have an argument when he suggests that there are a lot of variants for the support slots...  One way to justify that may be to reintroduce a SHT company.



Also on the multiple LR variants perhaps a different approach may be helpful.  Given the inclusion of destroyers, it follows that Thunderers should be there and I like both of these units- they seem very in keeping with the DK ethos.  These do however somewhat cover the roles of the vanquisher and demolisher, all be it more cheaply and not as well in the case of the Thunderer.

Does it make sense to mix and match tank types too much?  In my opinion you have three roles being fulfilled by the different LR variants (omitting the vanquisher command tank).  These are:

1) Main battle tank- the tanks responsible for taking the fight to the enemy, acting as the armoured fist and able to fulfil both AT and AP roles.   (basic Leman Russ)

2) Infantry support.  Shorter ranged assault tanks for direct cooperation with the infantry, generally fielded in smaller formations.  (Demolisher and Thunderer)

3) Tank hunting.  Longer range engagement and destruction of tank forces.  Generally hang back and operate as shoot and scoot as they can be easily outmaneuvered by normal tanks (Destroyer)

It would make clear sense to split destroyers into dedicated tank hunting units as they would not be effective cooperating with normal LR units due to the fixed guns.  Thunderer and demolishers should be kept as company upgrades to reflect their fire support roles and basic LR should be used in cohesive units as the armoured fist.  Ok, where does this get us...  I would suggest the following formations be added to the list (costings speculative)

Support
Tank Platoon    5 LR and one LR Vanquisher  (400 pts)
Tank Hunters    3 LR destroyers (300 pts)

Company Upgrades
Assault tanks       1-2 LR Thunderers        (50 pts each)
Tank Squadron     3 LR or LR Demolishers (200 pts)

This only adds two new slots to the list and does away with the list of different costings.  To my mind this is an advantage as there should be a degree of regimented-ness (if thats a word) to IG and marine formations with each formation fulfilling a clear and distinct role.  Anyway- thoughts?


PS- took so long to write this that two more posts were added.  Och well :)




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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:51 am 
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Hmmm. I think you might be clinging too tightly to Imperial Armour fluff here... I think you can lose the Vanquisher (right, not conquerer, glad someone is paying attention!), without violating the core canon of the 40K universe - perhaps, since they have access to such elite units like the laser destroyer, the Death Korps just have less use for Vanquishers?

I still think the list needs a really tight focus, and paring of what's not required for that focus.

Having read through everything you've said, perhaps the thing that should be lost, then, is the "siege-breaker" element?

Sounds to me you like the WWI trenches/tanks feel best. I'm not sure this fits my idea of a besieging army anyway - that would surely have armoured columns and bucketloads of artillery companies?

Lose the Thunderers (they're rather redundant with Demolishers) and the other, siege-related paraphanelia and concentrate on the "grim infantry" part.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:27 am 
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Okay here's my proposed structure for the eventual armoured formations once all the FW stuff is released, and reasoning for the structure.


Companies:
- None!

The army list should be about the infantry / cavalry first and foremost. Sure you could have 0-1 companies per every infantry company... but even that would allow an army where the majority of points were spent on tanks, with plenty of spaces clear in the army list for AA platforms, artillery etc. In essence it would be an armoured regiment.


Support Formations:
- Super-Heavy Battle Tank (1 SHT)
- Heavy Battle Tanks (3 Heavy Tanks, as yet unreleased and possibly even unsculpted)
- Battle Tanks (6 Leman Russ Tanks)

A gradual scaling in size, all competing for the same resources, the support slots will provide a natural limit to the number of tanks in the force without imposing serious limits.

Ugrade Formations:
- 1 Heavy Battle Tank
- 3 Battle Tanks (Leman Russ)

Same. :)




Now here are the roles I see in the army for the Leman Russ tanks (Very similar to Jok3r's ideas above really, though I think you mean Thunderer not Conquerer Jok3r).

- Battle Tank (Leman Russ, Vanquisher)
- Anti-Infantry Tank (Demolisher, Thunderer)
- Tank-hunter (Destroyer)

Now a closer investigation:

- Of the two battle tanks, while the Vanquisher may seem redundant, it also provides extra AT firepower if so desired, something the DK list is exceptionally weak on compared to the Steel Legion.

- Of the two Infantry-Support tanks, the Thunderer is there for fluff reasons only (As it's a rebuild of a damaged destroyer, and the DK are known to make use of ad-hoc repairs). Basically it's there to provide texture to the list, and I'd not expect it to be a mainstay unit, but its cheap price makes it worthy of consideration.

- The Tank Destroyer is there due to the Death Korps theme (Heavily german-influenced), I confidently expect to see them heavily featured in the next IA book.


So that's my attempted justification for the MBTs.

Having read through everything you've said, perhaps the thing that should be lost, then, is the "siege-breaker" element?


Then you're just making an up-gunned, more expensive Barran list.

Lord Inquisitor: I'm not sure this fits my idea of a besieging army anyway - that would surely have armoured columns and bucketloads of artillery companies?

A besieging army is the opposite of mobile warfare.

Siege warfare is slow and dangerous.

Think Gorgon. :D

Joker: Does it make sense to mix and match tank types too much?

This is a point of contention. I favour the characterful mix-and-match approach as seen with the Super-Heavy Tanks in the Steel Legion list, while some favour the more rigid approach taken with the Tank Company in the Steel Legion list.

There are merits to both methods of course, but I'll attempt to justify my opinion thusly:

- Independant points costs allows you to theme your force, while also imposing fluff & balance limits on the more powerful Leman Russ variants (Taking an army which only had large ammounts of Destroyers as Support Formations but no normal Leman Russ tanks at all would be against the background, for example).

- Independant points costs means that you can have just two entries in the army list choices page, which saves cluttering up the list with various composition rules, exceptions & choices (Jok3r proposes four choices, for example).


there should be a degree of regimented-ness (if thats a word) to IG and marine formations with each formation fulfilling a clear and distinct role.

The Death Korps are known for their willingness to repair and re-use damaged tanks, so any DK army that has been in the field for any length of time will begin to have 'unusual' tank formation compositions.

Lord Inquisitor: Lose the Thunderers

On fluff grounds I'm extraordinarily hesitant to remove them.

concentrate on the "grim infantry" part.

How would you propose to do that?

Apparently by dropping a couple of tank variants and a SHT variant... what else?



EDIT:

Note to everyone... the Conquerer is the fast (30cm speed) Leman Russ with the inferior battle cannon. It is neither a Vanquisher nor a Thunderer. :)




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J0k3r
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:30 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Dec. 29 2006,01:27)
QUOTE
Very similar to Jok3r's ideas above really, though I think you mean Thunderer not Conquerer Jok3r.

Yep, i do.  No idea where that came from considering the list was open when I wrote the post.  Its late, brain switching off :)

Ill edit the post to avoid confusion :)




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Legion 4
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:50 am 
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All Warfare is dangerous, Siege Warfare, which BTW, no one fights this way any more, was very slow and many times costly.  However, to keep the the DoK "flavor", Infantry formations should out number Armor formations (MBTs, Hvy Tanks, etc.) 2 or 3 to 1 ...  And Gorgons are APCs, so should be made available for the Infantry.

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J0k3r
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:56 am 
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On the independent points cost- fair enough.  i would question though- are players really going to tailor the units that much though?  Certain combinations are always going to be prevalent (ie all thunderers for cheap upgrade), as to adding extra slots is it easier to have 2 extra slots for special formations rather than an extra table in the list? I guess this is a personal taste thing.  I do think that one oddity is that under the current table the thunderer (nearly called it a conquerer again goddammit!!) is more common than the destroyer when it should be the other way around.  

Anyway, this is one of those conversations that could go on forever, similar to the titan patterns vs independent weapon costing debate (For the record im a limited pattern kinda guy  :;): ) and ultimately comes down to preference.  

Also really looking forward to the new FW heavy tanks- those drawings that went around earlier looked really good!  Out of interest are you planning to keep iterating the list as new things come up or do you have a distinct end point in mind for this particular version?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:01 am 
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Out of interest are you planning to keep iterating the list as new things come up or do you have a distinct end point in mind for this particular version?


I intend to make as accurate a version of the Death Korps list as possible, so for now it's pretty much finished structure-wise in my mind (We've just been doing points balances and minor stat tweaks for several iterations now), at least until the next bunch of DK models are revealed by FW.

Of course the tank formation types could be changed, and maybe the Thunderer given rare status (Though then noone would ever take one at all...), but for the most part I see the list as pretty solid now.

I expect that the list will recieve a moderate (perhaps even major) shakeup when I get my hands on the FW 40k Death Korps list, and when that shakeup is complete, then the list will be 'done'.

So for now, the playtesting can begin in earnest (I've finished ordering all my starting-army stuff now, just awaiting its delivery before I can start getting shot at!).




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:03 am 
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(Legion 4 @ Dec. 29 2006,01:50)
QUOTE
All Warfare is dangerous, Siege Warfare, which BTW, no one fights this way any more, was very slow and many times costly.  However, to keep the the DoK "flavor", Infantry formations should out number Armor formations (MBTs, Hvy Tanks, etc.) 2 or 3 to 1 ...  And Gorgons are APCs, so should be made available for the Infantry.

I totally agree! :D

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J0k3r
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:09 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Dec. 29 2006,02:01)
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So for now, the playtesting can begin in earnest (I've finished ordering all my starting-army stuff now, just awaiting its delivery before I can start getting shot at!).

Excellent!  For the now ill be proxing my orks for the hoards of cannon fodder, but make make a final set of swaps and purchases in th next few weeks for the full army.  Come late january kreig will be on the..err..slow advance towards the enemy.  Good luck chaps!

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Mojarn Piett
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:17 am 
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(Hena @ Dec. 29 2006,08:29)
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The stormsword. If I remember correctly this is the same that used to exists during old times? The one which point was to drive into middle of the enemy and blast away. Shouldn't this have Thick Rear Armour?

Nope, you're thinking about Stormhammer which had multiple turrets and was supposed to pair with Stormblades in dense terrain to protect them against infantry.

Stormsword is a new FW invention with no previous incarnation at all.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.8
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:46 pm 
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The armour values are the same on all the super heavy tanks, so there's no justification for giving Thick Rear Armour to any of them.

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