I'm a great fan of Griffons and Hellhounds and use them in my Ulani armies. The problem can be where you end up with a choice of Hydras or something else and often the hydras win.

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Yeah sorry I was a bit muddled and rambling.

So basically Hellhounds and Griffons are not tier one units in most Guard builds due to their more specialized uses, harder to have synergy stats, and in general, there being just better bang-for-the-buck upgrades/other formations to have in your list (e.g. Hydras), especially at 3k. So when I say it's a faction wide issue, it's really one just having better toys to take instead.

In the Cadian list they're somewhat usable as a 6 strong formation as they can lose a unit and still do something so they're somewhat unique as a formation (everywhere else they're an upgrade IIRC). The real issue is that for the points in an all-comers build there's just better stuff you'd need instead. Now in my experience they can work out in Cadians as the follow up to an attack or as a supporting / preping unit for a Cadian Armoured Fist formation as all have 30cm movement and that and gives the list some much needed mobility since the core formation is a slow, hard as nails WE+infantry force.

Typically I'd use them for digging some enemy infantry out of cover as you can move right up with the hellhounds, prep and try and burn them out with the 6 Ignore Cover shots and then retain and assault with the mechanized infantry and get the 6 additional 3+ FF shots. That's going to put some hurt out.

Something similar can be done with griffons but instead of being a support fire formation you can use them to advance far into cover and use them to sustain with shells over another unit and cover via Indirect at anyone stupid enough to come near. Worse case you're enemy has to expend a few activations to go shift them and maybe that's the move that gives you the chance to set tempo. However that's all theory hammer and I have not been able to use them to their full effect, probably due to my inabilities as a commander.

When they seem to come into their own in my games have been when we're doing some serious city-fights where cover is abundant and range is reduced (Stalingrad) as opposed to rolling hills and rivers and forests (Kursk).

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Me too like the models, Griffons at least, and love the idea of having several types of tanks. Perhaps they will find their way into my army if their cost dropped some...
Looks like the Griffon/hellhound upgrade is about to become cheaper so this one should follow. If the 3 tank strong upgrade costs 50/100 points the formation should land at something like 125/200 perhaps?

225-250 due to the activation surcharge. But yeah that would make them pretty damn more attractive I expect


Que? Must have missed an announcement!

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Info from the steel legion feedback thread.

3 Griffons will be 50 points as an upgrade. So 150 would be my Starting point for a formation of 6. Then they will be fighting with Sentinels instead of chimeras when I choose army. Interesting

Hmm, still don't get it why Cadians have them as a formation rather then an upgrade.
To me the Cadians is basically a lot of men and Kasrkin, not sure why they should have this option? It would fit the theme more if they didn't have them at all...
Anyone who knows how they ended up in the list, so I can justify myself using them

Actually as the Cadians are not a big mob of infantry but pretty much are supposed to be NATOin Space where good tactics and flexible units are to win the day as opposed to Steel Legion being modeled on the Warsaw Pact "Numbers Annihilate" thing so it's somewhat fitting. I would assume SG would know but he's MIA at the moment

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Cadia is a 'fortress planet', the recruitment rate for the Cadian PDF/regiments is supposedly the same as the birth rate. They're well trained, well equipped and highly motivated. I don't recall any older fluff indicating extensive use of variant tanks, or armour beyond the 'standard' for a combined arms Imperial Guard regiment, so perhaps there's something in the newer books I haven't read.

Perhaps it's meant to more strongly represent a combined force sitting somewhere between Steel Legion and Minervans?

I've been looking at the cadian list recently with the intention of taking my steel legion in that direction (got a leviathan being modelled up ATM.) from what I can see they are an "elite" infantry assault list - a bit like Krieg but with better/smaller infantry riding in in stormswords and leviathans. As you say, a bit like minervans their support are generally mechanised in order to keep up with the advance. Must admit, even with my limited knowledge of the newer fluff, it perhaps doesn't represent "all" cadian regiments, but sounds like an interesting list to play.

I'm with Blip on what made me want to invest in this army. Infantry and warengines in a fun combination.
Just wondered why the standard support upgrades became formations
And on the subject of "why". Anyone knows why the marauder bomber is a single plane not a pair as in many other lists?
I do not mind just wondering.

Another of the attractions for me of the cadian list is some of the solid support formations.

I have seen it suggested before that one of the issues with getting certain specialised units (hellhounds, gryphons, demolishers) into a steel legion list is that activation count usually means upgrading already large companies is suboptimal. Now this is a character of the steel legion list, representing it's rigid command structure and unwheeldlyness (sp?) where as the cadian list seems to represent a more flexible, highly trained and better commanded units operating more independently.

In this respect the list could almost represent the new storm trooper faction - militarum tempestus ?? Or whatever daft name GW is calling them this week. Perhaps the armoured fist support unit should use towtrucks - sorry - taurux instead of chimeras ?? Sorry, slap me ! ;-)

This is all theory of course, as I haven't actually got them on the table yet.

The Krieg list has a single Marauder too. Ben statted up stats for a 'heavy' Marauder with the same weapons but 5+ 2DC as the Forge World models are close in size and mass to a Thunderhawk or Vampire (having roughly 9-10cm wingspan) so these stats represent the modern aircraft properly.

Blip, expertly stated. Also , good idea about the militarum tempestus counts-as Cadians. The taurox could be stat'd to be the same as a Chimera and be done with it.

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I assume they the intention is that upgrade added to White Shield Co also have an initiative of 3+ ? Just thought it should be noted somewhere like the special note about war engines.

However, I would say - I can't see why i would take white shields with any kind of significantly costly upgrade (storm lords, cough, cough) with that disadvantage ? In which case the only time I would possibly take them would be as an unmounted blitz guard. Does this fit their fluff ?

Should upgrades to white shields also get a cost reduction (somehow) ?

Ps. Stormlord proxies from exodus wars hopefully in the post today... Squee ! ;-D

I had another game with my Cadians last weekend.

Everything I tried seemed fine. I scratchbuilt 3 Sabres, but for 100 they seem a bit steep. So slow and no armour. I'll try to use them in trenches but with their 30cm range...

What a pity I don't own any Hellhounds models, that formations could be very useful for me, I have to do with Demolishers meanwhile.

I also wonder, why the fortifications in the Cadian list are more expensive than the ones in the Baran's or Krieg lists.

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