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This is not 40k. The game should not care whether you have or don't have sponsons on the model. It's too small a detail. WEs a separate in this issue that they actually should be cared for in this sense. But individual AV or infantry stand really shouldn't.
Modelling an army correctly, is not IMO nonsense, nor does it equate to playing W40k. I agree with you that individual tanks and infantry should not have variable individuals weapons, abstractions to a single type of gun are fine. I do think a level of detail that represents whether an armies tanks have sponson weapons at all or not is appropriate and good though. There can be a wide spectrum of opinion on levels of detail and accuracy to W40k in Epic, or whether WYSIWYG is an ideal good thing for the game/players, we seem to be on other ends of the scale and neither’s right or wrong as such it’s just a question of gaming style. My preferred option would be to make all Death Korps Russ variants sponsonless across the board anyway so it’d be an army level thing.
Death Korps are very distinctive and different from standard guard and they should be considered more of a separate list than a sublist. Comparing the Krieg list from Siege to the Guard list from the rulebook there are 7 shared units that function exactly the same in both and 26 new or altered units in the Krieg list (for comparison Barrans share 12 identical units with the rulebook list). Players already have to adapt to so much new stuff and the same stuff stat-ed differently that making proper Death Korps Leman Russ variants with different stats would not be too much of a stretch.
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it's my personal (aesthetic) opinion that sponsons are a must for leman russes...it's very imperial. ÂÂ
I used to feel very much the same and grumbled that FW tanks didn’t come from. The last few months and having a good read of the Vraks book changed that and I’ve come round to the sponsonless look for them. With the lovely stretched and detailed models of the Mars Alpha tanks I definitely prefer the look without than with (though I’ll use each, where appropriate, in different armies).
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The lack of sponsons has only come around recently due to 40k points pricing and peoples wish to get as many armoured vehicles with battlecannons in thier list as possible...and that's been changed again now that leman russes can fire all of thier weapons.
Vaguely aware different W40k editions have made them worse or better for don’t really keep up with that. I’m certain gaming trends and points values were not the reason for FWs decision to run their tank ranges sponsonless; the care much more about the aesthetics, making models that look awesome and developing real world realism into their tanks and armies, they are, I hear, massive tank and WW buffs.
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I will note that the whole 'they don't use Sponsons' argument comes solely from the pictures in the Vraks books... when Forgeworld have, to my knowlege, never featured a Leman Russ with Sponsons in any of their, what, ten sourcebooks?
The 40k rules allow them to take Sponsons, I believe it's just an aesthetic choice of Forgeworld's not to use sponsons on their tanks, rather than any great indication of typical Krieg weapons loadouts.
This isn’t some silly notion I’ve extrapolated up from a few photos - in all in the Vraks books depict 67 Leman Russ tanks (not counting always sponsonless Thunders, etc) and not a single one of the possible 67 has sponsons.
Vraks isn’t a piddly little conflict with a single uniform force on either side either; it’s a massive conflict that wore on for 18 years and led to the deaths of 14 million death korps soldiers. 34 different regiments fought on Vraks, 13 of which are depicted in models and/or illustrations with their own distinctive camouflage schemes. Some of these were present at the start, while other fresh regiments were equipped and sent from Krieg as the campaign wore on. So a large number of regiments over a long time period were featured as equipped that way.
They’re not averse to putting some alternate models in their books occasionally; the older style SM predator makes an appearance in the Space Marine vehicles book, they could easily have added even one single tank or illustration drawing of a tank with sponsons. They didn’t.
Death Korps are FW’s baby – their largest range and totally their own creation (bar a few lines or illustrations), which they have detailed in very much more detail across the three thick books than any other race or army has had. They have the most awesome background, models, battle photos and real life realism. A lot of people will be drawn to the Krieg list in epic far more than the Barran list and so representing it right and true and accurate to Vraks is important IMO. Yes the list includes standard guard options for sponsons (and the new variant GW tanks) so as to fit the new rules and not put off players who might have tanks with them from using them, but it’s clearly not their intent for how the army should look and that should be the most important thing. The archetypical, iconic Death Korps Leman Russ most definitely does not have sponsons and that’s what the epic list should go with.
Death Korps are distinctive in the organisation of their infantry with their not having any heavy weapons in their squads, so too their tanks are distinctive compared to the mass of guard tanks by remaining sponsonless. The page of text on P120 of the first book discusses Death Korps Leman Russ (and variants) and talks about the DK having a callous disregard for their tanks, callously sending all sorts of types across no-mans land rather than playing tactical or defensively; even throwing rare long anti-tank ones out. By representing the tanks properly they can be costed slightly cheaper and you can get more in an army and use them a little more casually – reinforcing the ethos Krieg use them in. Also by making them slightly cheaper the use of the an infantry formation with attached Leman Russes (as the background talks about them often being, with the infantry using the tanks for cover while crossing no-mans land) become more feasible.
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E&C: there's nothing wrong with all... Death Korps Leman Russes having no Sponsons...
...however I'm still loath to make this move.
Why should the people wanting to model and play Krieg correctly be penalised and the units done wrong in the list? It could easily be flipped that the people with sponsons have to count them as a ‘Death Korps of Krieg Leman Russ’ or ‘Mars Alpha Leman Russ’ or whatever. I regard Krieg tanks with sponsons as being on an equivalent level to Commisars in Titans, allowed by a current set of rules, but not being appropriate in the background.
I started a playtest game vs TRC on Vassal this morning too. We only had time to get as far as but we’ll continue the next time we’re free and the time zones allow. In the game I’ve taken a formation of 4 Leman Russes, 1 Demolisher and 1 Thunderer, all without sponsons and all with pintle mounted heavy stubber instead. I costed that at 350points, a 30 point reduction from normal which is probably around reasonable.
Strewth that’s far too long a post, I may have left the kitchen sink in there somewhere. /geek waffle off, night out time.
