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General Mossinian Thoughts

 Post subject: General Mossinian Thoughts
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:12 pm 
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It's a date then. :)

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 Post subject: General Mossinian Thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:20 am 
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Well I can't sleep so here are my unfocused ideas (which should serve as a basis for conversation, not arguement or anger :) ).
Because I'm negative I'll only say the bad things or different things. Everything I don't mention (unit fluff text, use of 1st ed plastics etc etc) assume it is brilliant :)

Before going any further believe it or not (and many don't) 15 activation sieger arty armies are balanced (I tend to 14 activations now when going popcorn), even when they weren't the best tourny players had pretty much figured out how to beat it and I haven't lost to siegers in absolute ages now. Indeed a handfull of times I have been a few stands off anhililating them (with chaos hordes and marine drop armies admittedly but you get the point). Its largely because unlike other popcorn forces yours die with incredible speed when (slowly) attacking and if the strategy is entirely defensive all you can do is draw. In fact lower activation ragnarock armies are often harder to beat, not only because its not expected but all those garrisoned tanks in emplacements can be chilling!

First off - unit names. I prefer the Imperial Guard/Planetary Defence force label, followed by pattern name like teh rulebook (though you can differ). Really if a model is identical to the Siegers it shouldn't get any new name.

Rapiers. People say not as nifty as thudd guns. I disagree as this list has even less infantry AT than the siegers and the idea of giving every company 3 rapiers is a necessary one.

Otherwise before going deeper. Your list (well we know it started off as mine :) but you get blamed now) is of course a sieger varient made to fulfil my craving not to use nice new models and as I said elsewhere that was fine for your original 'simple' supplement but now its a lot grander and they are somewhat wanting in comparison to your high standards elsewhere.

So various changes have been trotted out as ideas and I think you had a tighter timetable than you do now. So perhaps open to a few changes? If they look thought out they are are unsurprisingly mostly cut and paste from some brainstorming and early testing notes when I was playing with my directors cut list (gods, back in the day three clubs to choose from to play Epic and in different country to family, which of course has many negative points in addition to this one good one!) before I got lazy and went for a de skilling rather than a serious change. Note these ain't mostly been tested and when they were it was part of a very different army.

List structure. Since you have gone for the 1 core 3 support and have such an awful core I think you could do with a few changes.

First off special rules
BTS - lose the must take one and instead on the army list make it 1 instead of 0-1. Keep it as the sole BTS though as its different.
Fortified positions - just make them a support formation pick, lose the sieger 1 per company restriction (these guys have been preping for a while and it shows the choice of where you put resources)

Special rules/Units/list
Iterators
I see a lot of discussion on this chap. Either stick with what you've got (effectively every formation in the army gets one) or... do something a bit different. The infantry are pants so give them a boost. Scrap the special rule, change the unit and stick it only with infantry.
In essence becomes Infantry, move 15cm, save 6+, CC4+, FF5+, CC+1 (no need for MW), give him something like a plasma gun then Leader and Inspiring
Plus points are many, not least they stop looking so much like a commissar equivalent from the outset. I would even consider giving them back fearless to show how hard it is to stamp out heresy :)

Units
Fortifications
Replace barbed wire with minefields (dangerous terrain test to any unit passing over, infantry, tank, skimmer). Easier to make, bit different.

Snipers
Lose scout. They are there as a formation option. Lot better as normal chaps as they can still garrison and look like pdf versions of the emperors best (the regular guard and any krieg snipers you may have).

Siegfried
I suggest a different name.

PDF bomber and figher
Not tempted to use 2nd edition models? Shame the bombers armour is so good :)

Infantry
I'm happy they are the worst of the worst (they could turn to chaos and get AP6+/AT6+ if they get desperate).

Sappers
Surely FF IC on the heavy flamer?

List
Go with the idea for bigger formations. Currently it is just cruelty to pay that much for stuff that poor. The siegers are 1 autocannon and 9 stubbers for 175, you are 5 stubbers for 200 (that loss of 45cm shot is very big deal in my opinion). Easiest thing is to add on the infantry upgrade so
Core
1 Regimental HQ - SC, 15 Infantry, 3 rapiers, 1 iterator - 350
1+ Infantry Company - HQ, 15 Infantry, 1 iterator - 225/250
Or
1+ Infantry Company - HQ, 15 Infantry, 3 rapiers, 1 iterator - 300
Have a little bit of background talking about rapier production and impact of krieg armour.

Upgrades
Mortars
Are you sure those mortars are 75? I found them dead handy and couldn't put them lower than a 100. Then again if you are limiting inspiring and leader in a big way they should get something!

Rough riders
Remove, make into company of ten in support section.

Support
Rough rider company
Bring in as company of ten strong chaps for 200 (remember no fearless or inspiring for them, and only one attack).

Add in fortifications with minefield change (still 100 points). Have two options for swaps, so you have an entry saying 500mm of minefields, 500mm of trenches or 6 emplacements and up to 6 bunkers or emplacments (or any mix of the two as long as its 6). So if you wish to emplace vehicles in a big way you can more easily, also making things a bit different.

Engineers
Lose the split up rule. Removes a bit of faqing and confusion and makes them more scarce. Actually I would remove the 0-1 restriction as they are overpriced (but very useful to have) so self limiting. Maybe consider adding the option of 2 sappers for 50 points as a new upgrade option.

Snipers
Since they are losing sniper would have to come down in price probably or go up in numbers (I favour the latter but the former is alright if you want a 100-125 point formation)

Heavy Tanks
I would strongly consider making it a 9 strong company for 425.

AA
Might want to consider swapping for those FW things, but its a very minor point if you do these other changes.

Stormhammer
As its fairly pants and can't be fearless maybe make it 150/175? (Probably worth 150, unless you use masses of them to support assaults when worth 175.) Or be a bit radical and have him garrison to fit the loverly fluff above?

Firestrike
Lose the gun emplacements. Its a harsh world, if you want them why do you think you can swap bunkers for them?

PDF fighter
4 for 200 seems a bit much, you could bring it down to 175 for 4 considering they are so sub par for ground attack and on the same point per AA hit as thunderbolts (75 points per hit on intercept).

PDF bomber
3 for 250

And lastly, those are 1st edition infantry, not second :) (in the model guide bit - I made my 1st edition guys into a very interesting jord whatever force, with infantry carrying lascannon instead of autocannon, tis neat but half done).

Backstory
I've said before what I think about chaos but how about instead of being shot the Mos SC goes on to infamy as the head of a penal regiment, dying on some chaff mission? :)

Of course if you really want three new armies to satisfy hungry gamers I suggest a background re-write and sticking Salamanders in instead of White Scars :) - nothing says dead seige troops more than Multi Melta and Heavy flamers (and its 98% done, just have to sort out redeemer and maybe drop a couple of units like helios if things look too complex/crowded, plus between us me and BL have some fantastic models all painted - you've seen the sallies I mostly got off PG?) and of course they aren't in the EpicUk book, making them even more unique! Course that's a lot of work and they are vaguely penciled in to a future supplement idea.


So overall bigger formations a few tweaks to make it more different and the loss of a lot of fearless and leader. Maybe too much harsh but who knows. The rag company might need a command tank with leader perhaps. Super heavies that aren't fearless is a big departure from the guard as well. Overall I would expect 10 activations to be the practical amount aimed for. Biggest worry is with the loss of the activation crutch combined with so little leader the army grinds to a halt.




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 Post subject: General Mossinian Thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:43 am 
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Only just started reading krieg but I think the bomber should be armour 6+, I tested it both at 5+ and 6+ extensively and DC2 6+ was enough.

So do plasma weapons fit krieg? Could make them heavy bolters. Or maybe heavy flamers even. Personally i would just replace them with thunderers.




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 Post subject: General Mossinian Thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:13 am 
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Something else, just decided to start at the start as it were. How many troops? Thats a bit, well, underwealming.

Heres a bit of history.
The Battle of the Somme
Roughly 10,000 men per division
13 British and 11 French divisions (initial)
51 British and 48 French divisions (final)
620,000 dead, wounded, missing, or captured,
100 tanks lost,
782 RFC aircraft lost
10½ German divisions (initial)
50 German divisions (final)
450,000 dead, wounded, missing, or captured British count, Germans put it at 180,000)

Battle of Kursk
Germans
3,000 tanks
900,000 infantry
2,000 aircraft
German losses
50,000 dead, wounded, or captured
248 tanks destroyed
200 aircraft downed
Russians
3,600 tanks
20,000 guns
1,300,000 infantry
2,800
180,000 dead, wounded, or captured
1,600 tanks damaged or destroyed
1,000 aircraft damaged or downed

Verdun
Casualties
French 378,000; of whom 163,000 died
Germans 330,000; of whom 143,000 died

3rd battle of paschundale
Allies
508,800 dead, wounded, missing, or captured
Germans
348,300 dead, wounded, missing, or captured

In short your troop numbers seem a little low.

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 Post subject: General Mossinian Thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:04 am 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 02 Jun. 2009, 02:20 )

Well I can't sleep so here are my unfocused ideas (which should serve as a basis for conversation, not arguement or anger :) ).
Because I'm negative I'll only say the bad things or different things. Everything I don't mention (unit fluff text, use of 1st ed plastics etc etc) assume it is brilliant :)

Okies. :)

Before going any further believe it or not (and many don't) 15 activation sieger arty armies are balanced (I tend to 14 activations now when going popcorn), even when they weren't the best tourny players had pretty much figured out how to beat it and I haven't lost to siegers in absolute ages now.

I don't think the list structure helped either, for some reasons it was more powerful than the Siegemasters... Rug has the details on that.

First off - unit names. I prefer the Imperial Guard/Planetary Defence force label, followed by pattern name like teh rulebook (though you can differ). Really if a model is identical to the Siegers it shouldn't get any new name.
Then why do you suggest renaming the Siegfried?


First off special rules
BTS - lose the must take one and instead on the army list make it 1 instead of 0-1.
Isn't that effectively the same thing?

Fortified positions - just make them a support formation pick, lose the sieger 1 per company restriction (these guys have been preping for a while and it shows the choice of where you put resources)
I like this.
Iterators
I see a lot of discussion on this chap. Either stick with what you've got (effectively every formation in the army gets one) or... do something a bit different. The infantry are pants so give them a boost. Scrap the special rule, change the unit and stick it only with infantry (companies).
I also like this.

Units
Fortifications
Replace barbed wire with minefields (dangerous terrain test to any unit passing over, infantry, tank, skimmer). Easier to make, bit different.
I like this, though Skimmers should technically be able to avoid them?

Snipers
Lose scout. They are there as a formation option. Lot better as normal chaps as they can still garrison and look like pdf versions of the emperors best (the regular guard and any krieg snipers you may have).
Krieg aren't smart enough to use Snipers. :))


PDF bomber and figher
Not tempted to use 2nd edition models? Shame the bombers armour is so good :)

Nope. The current SG models are now old...

Sappers
Surely FF IC on the heavy flamer?
Why, when a Hellhound doesn't get that?

List
Go with the idea for bigger formations. Currently it is just cruelty to pay that much for stuff that poor. The siegers are 1 autocannon and 9 stubbers for 175, you are 5 stubbers for 200 (that loss of 45cm shot is very big deal in my opinion). Easiest thing is to add on the infantry upgrade so
Core
1 Regimental HQ - SC, 15 Infantry, 3 rapiers, 1 iterator - 350
1+ Infantry Company - HQ, 15 Infantry, 1 iterator - 225/250
Or
1+ Infantry Company - HQ, 15 Infantry, 3 rapiers, 1 iterator - 300
Have a little bit of background talking about rapier production and impact of krieg armour.

I'm not convinced by the need to have larger infantry formations.

Upgrades
Mortars
Are you sure those mortars are 75? I found them dead handy and couldn't put them lower than a 100. Then again if you are limiting inspiring and leader in a big way they should get something!

I've found them not as good as Thudd Guns in my Death Korps playtesting, the extra range is very useful.

Rough riders
Remove, make into company of ten in support section.
No, the Mossinians will not have Rough Rider companies.


Engineers
Lose the split up rule.
Fair enough I don't think anyone's been using it anyway.


AA
Might want to consider swapping for those FW things, but its a very minor point if you do these other changes.
I'm considering putting the Sabre AA platform in there, if that is what you're referring to?

Stormhammer
As its fairly pants and can't be fearless maybe make it 150/175? (Probably worth 150, unless you use masses of them to support assaults when worth 175.) Or be a bit radical and have him garrison to fit the loverly fluff above?
It's not pants it has 4 3+ FF attacks, Thick Rear Armour, Walker and 4+ RA.
It can drive at full speed through most terrain until it's right amongst the enemy for an Engagement.

Firestrike
Lose the gun emplacements. Its a harsh world, if you want them why do you think you can swap bunkers for them?
Adding gun emplacements makes the formation more expensive.

PDF fighter
4 for 200 seems a bit much, you could bring it down to 175 for 4 considering they are so sub par for ground attack and on the same point per AA hit as thunderbolts (75 points per hit on intercept).

8 AA5+ attacks is fine at 4 units for 200pts, heck they might still be too cheap.
These were one of the overpowered units under your first 'director's' cut list IIRC.

PDF bomber
3 for 250
Why?



Backstory
I've said before what I think about chaos but how about instead of being shot the Mos SC goes on to infamy as the head of a penal regiment, dying on some chaff mission? :)
If he was successful as a penal regiment commander, that would give him redemption.
One of the themes of the story is that everybody is wrong, everyone screws up, and noone gets redemption.

- The Death Korps kill tens of thousands of innocents.
- The Mossinians pointlessly rebel, and then are either put in penal regiments or are turned into servitors.
- The Mossinian leaders pointlessly rebel, and are then tortured to death.
- The Space Marines make a mistake and kill innocents.

The only person who 'won' was the dead Tzeentchian cultist, because he caused all the idiocy in the first place. Kinda like WWI the entire war was pointless and unnessesary.

Of course if you really want three new armies to satisfy hungry gamers I suggest a background re-write and sticking Salamanders in instead of White Scars :) - nothing says dead seige troops more than Multi Melta and Heavy flamers (and its 98% done, just have to sort out redeemer and maybe drop a couple of units like helios if things look too complex/crowded, plus between us me and BL have some fantastic models all painted - you've seen the sallies I mostly got off PG?) and of course they aren't in the EpicUk book, making them even more unique! Course that's a lot of work and they are vaguely penciled in to a future supplement idea.

Picking the White Scars helps reinforce the theme of the futility and pointlessness of the war for Mossino. The White Scars are the ultimate 'rapid reaction' Marine Strike Force, who concentrate all their tactical doctrines on speed and precision.

Of course, a flaw in their ethos is revealed in their Mossinian intervention, which helps to ratchet up the cosmic irony another notch as they screw up yet again.

The story just wouldn't be quite so... sad... if it were the Salamanders who were involved.

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 Post subject: General Mossinian Thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:12 am 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 02 Jun. 2009, 02:43 )

So do plasma weapons fit krieg? Could make them heavy bolters. Or maybe heavy flamers even. Personally i would just replace them with thunderers.

You mean for the Leman Russ Demolisher?

They have Stormblades, so I don't see why they can't have Plasma Cannon sponsons too.

Their tanks are quite well equipped, it's their soldiers who are chaff.

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 Post subject: General Mossinian Thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:19 am 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 02 Jun. 2009, 03:13 )

...your troop numbers seem a little low.

Eighty-one thousand combatants die during the four month war.

I've no idea how many civilians die but I imagine it's a lot, especially during the ten days of shelling the capital city suffers.

Unlike WWI this isn't a war between great nations, it's a minor mostly agricultural 'country' in a local uprising with a small(ish) task force being sent to pacify them.

Europe in WWI had twenty times the population of Mossino, so it's not surprising that the casualties and timescale of the war are smaller.




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 Post subject: General Mossinian Thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:58 am 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 02 Jun. 2009, 11:19 )

Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 02 Jun. 2009, 03:13 )

...your troop numbers seem a little low.

Eighty-one thousand combatants die during the four month war.

I've no idea how many civilians die but I imagine it's a lot, especially during the ten days of shelling the capital city suffers.

Unlike WWI this isn't a war between great nations, it's a minor mostly agricultural 'country' in a local uprising with a small(ish) task force being sent to pacify them.

Europe in WWI had twenty times the population of Mossino, so it's not surprising that the casualties and timescale of the war are smaller.

80,000 casualties are pretty much the same as the casualties on the first day of the Somme. And this is fighting with weapons a century old, bombers or orbital prep or anything.

The Somme (and Paschundal) was 5 months, with peaks and troughs of fighting. Kursk was 1-2 months depending on how you define it.

The whole point of total war was that everyone was mobilised. Europe 'only' had a population of around 174 million (Germany alone today has a population of 82 million, and 20 times less than Europe at 1914 puts it on par with Hungary or a similar mini state today) and was an agricultural place primarily (remember even during WWII the German army was still horse drawn).

It sounds grand to start with, world rebelling etc, but then you see the numbers and its less than the Pakistan/Bangladesh civil war (9 months, 3 million dead) and it becomes something akin to a bush war in Africa.

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 Post subject: General Mossinian Thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:12 pm 
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it becomes something akin to a bush war in Africa.


That's fine.

Mossino has a population of 1.6 million, mostly farmers.

The total population of the entire planet is only 6.6 million, because every time the planet grows over that size the population is tithed for the Guard, so that it'll always remain a net exporter of foodstuffs.

By way of comparison, the population of Earth in 1914 was 1.8 billion; the population of Casinum V is 0.36% the size of Earth in 1914.

So it makes sense that the numbers involved in the war are a lot smaller.

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 Post subject: General Mossinian Thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:19 pm 
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Quote: (Rug @ 02 Jun. 2009, 12:13 )

The current SG marauders are not old! ...The majority of tournament players are still using SG flyers over the forgeworld ones...

It's not my fault they don't want to spend £££ to update their old miniatures. :))


As far as GW at large is concerned, from artworks to novels to models, the Marauder Bomber looks like the Forgeworld design, the Fanatic model is a relic of the past.




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 Post subject: General Mossinian Thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:39 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 02 Jun. 2009, 11:04 )

I don't think the list structure helped either, for some reasons it was more powerful than the Siegemasters... Rug has the details on that.

I wish someone had written somewhere what these were as I'm quite surprised.

Then why do you suggest renaming the Siegfried?


I'm inconsistent and writing at night? :) At the time it was because it seemed a lot different from the scout tank. Because well its not a scout tank any more.

First off special rules
BTS - lose the must take one and instead on the army list make it 1 instead of 0-1.
Isn't that effectively the same thing?

Identical, but it removes a point of confusion (saying must take but then having 0-1 in the list).

Iterators
I also like this.

Bare in mind its a big balance change, especially for the support formations.

I like this, though Skimmers should technically be able to avoid them?

Flier can but skimmers are too close to the ground (plus I hate Eldar). It actually matches the old 2nd ed rule :) The rational given I quite like which is proximity mine launch themselves several metres above the ground before popping.

Snipers
Krieg aren't smart enough to use Snipers. :))

Its just on the face of it scanning the list they would be my premier formation. Scouts and snipers, I'd want 3-4 as they are cheap and given good ZoC coverage and when those inspiring chaps come close shoot 'em to hell.

PDF bomber and figher
Not tempted to use 2nd edition models? Shame the bombers armour is so good :)

Nope. The current SG models are now old...

But also in the main rulebook with different stats...

Sappers
Surely FF IC on the heavy flamer?
Why, when a Hellhound doesn't get that?
Because otherwise your assault engineers, the classic jump the bunker boys historically, are worse in assaults than they are in shooting. They are intended to be your one hope of recapturing any bunkers that fall and currently they are a bit poor at that if they firefight.
The Hellhound doesn't fight assaults as much as them so it doesn't matter. Plus you can say its not a handy man portable weapon so less useful when storming something point blank.

List
Go with the idea for bigger formations.
I'm not convinced by the need to have larger infantry formations.

You have to do something with the infantry. Currently they are so poor vs price unless you have a burning desire to field a horde of ragnarock or similar the siegers are a better bet as the core formations at least do something (having double the firepower for 25 points less) and the supporting formations are similar enough. Add in the lack of commissars for support and what is the way to play the army successfully?

In fact it might be an idea for you to make up what you see as a typical Mos list and compare it to one of my Sieger lists to see if there is actually much difference?

Mortars
Are you sure those mortars are 75?
I've found them not as good as Thudd Guns in my Death Korps playtesting, the extra range is very useful.
Surprising. Remember these chaps are forward deployed in fortifications so the 60cm range is almost enough typically to reach the enemy deployment, so after the first move you can start hitting him (and ensuring he doesn't bunch up).
Try running a tank army with the infantry forward deployed in fortifications with mortars to keep people from bunching up to assault.

I'm considering putting the Sabre AA platform in there, if that is what you're referring to?
Thats the beast, though does it have autocannon (30cm 5/6/6 on an AA mount) or heavy stubber (15cm 6/0/6 on an AA mount)?

Stormhammer
It's not pants it has 4 3+ FF attacks, Thick Rear Armour, Walker and 4+ RA.
It can drive at full speed through most terrain until it's right amongst the enemy for an Engagement.
Nope, knew I wasn't going mad, you've written FF4+ on the datafax. FF3+ and yes (2 2/3 hits vs 2 hits) its a bit better, but remember you have most likely been using it as a fearless beasty and if you restrict commissars it won't be (have you tested it as non fearless? I always had a commissar in it during testing which made it a damn site better, without but with FF3+ I still think it should be 175).

Firestrike
Lose the gun emplacements. Its a harsh world, if you want them why do you think you can swap bunkers for them?
Adding gun emplacements makes the formation more expensive.
Oh I don't suggest lowering the price, rather if you want emplacements you should be getting them as part of your fortifications. Tis one of those unifying things for the army.

PDF fighter
8 AA5+ attacks is fine at 4 units for 200pts, heck they might still be too cheap.
These were one of the overpowered units under your first 'director's' cut list IIRC.
Its good I'm consistent :) If you are running with no ground flak they would be worth it, but everyone goes for a mix, especially when you always go second. They have numbers so they get through against heavish flak, but they will take defensive shots from bombers as well and there is no real secondary role for them with a grand total of 2/3 of an AP hit and 2/3's of an AT hit at 15cm on ground attack (if the enemy is in cover its half that) vs for a thunderbolt 1 AT hit and 1 2/3 of an AP hit. A wise they are 2 hits (tbolts) vs 2 2/3's. The numbers are there, the range isn't I would expect heavy casualties trying to cap a thawk.

PDF bomber
3 for 250
Why?
No change in firepower, ups resilance and I thought you were anti popcorn so making things more expensive was the aim?

The story just wouldn't be quite so... sad... if it were the Salamanders who were involved.
Yes, hence the re-write. Tis just to answer the calls for new lists as the raven guard could do the same as the white scars but I'm unaware of them being ready (or course if they are I suggest a quick swap as they have a similar ethos?). But the Sallies are supposed to be nice and fluffy and all, so yes hard to justify!




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 Post subject: General Mossinian Thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:45 pm 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 02 Jun. 2009, 12:39 )

I like this, though Skimmers should technically be able to avoid them?


Flier can but skimmers are too close to the ground (plus I hate Eldar). It actually matches the old 2nd ed rule :) The rational given I quite like which is proximity mine launch themselves several metres above the ground before popping.

(Yeah, I'm pimping "EPIC: Total War" everywhere I post.)

Here's some work-in-progress  on race/army specific minefields for the supplement.

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 Post subject: General Mossinian Thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:51 pm 
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Oh and give the poor engineers walker :) Getting blow up by mines when you are an engineer is very undignified :)

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 Post subject: General Mossinian Thoughts
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:57 pm 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 02 Jun. 2009, 12:39 )

Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 02 Jun. 2009, 11:04 )

I don't think the list structure helped either, for some reasons it was more powerful than the Siegemasters... Rug has the details on that.

I wish someone had written somewhere what these were as I'm quite surprised.

Then why do you suggest renaming the Siegfried?


I'm inconsistent and writing at night? :) At the time it was because it seemed a lot different from the scout tank. Because well its not a scout tank any more.

It's called the Siegfried Light Tank (not Scout Tank) in the document I have on my HD.

Maybe it should get a new name entirely.


First off special rules
BTS - lose the must take one and instead on the army list make it 1 instead of 0-1.
Isn't that effectively the same thing?

Identical, but it removes a point of confusion (saying must take but then having 0-1 in the list).
I'll do both.

[quote][quote]PDF bomber and figher
Not tempted to use 2nd edition models? Shame the bombers armour is so good :)

Nope. The current SG models are now old...

But also in the main rulebook with different stats...
If someone wants to paint up some great looking 1st ed models I'll replace 'em.

But the core rulebook models are obsolecent. :)



I'm considering putting the Sabre AA platform in there, if that is what you're referring to?
Thats the beast, though does it have autocannon (30cm 5/6/6 on an AA mount) or heavy stubber (15cm 6/0/6 on an AA mount)?

The model is a twin autocannon on an AA mount, so it'd be something like:

45cm AP4+/AT5+/AA5+

Stormhammer
It's not pants it has 4 3+ FF attacks, Thick Rear Armour, Walker and 4+ RA.
It can drive at full speed through most terrain until it's right amongst the enemy for an Engagement.
Nope, knew I wasn't going mad, you've written FF4+ on the datafax. FF3+ and yes (2 2/3 hits vs 2 hits) its a bit better, but remember you have most likely been using it as a fearless beasty and if you restrict commissars it won't be (have you tested it as non fearless? I always had a commissar in it during testing which made it a damn site better, without but with FF3+ I still think it should be 175).

That's a typo, it has the correct FF stat on the refence chart at the back of the book.

Firestrike
Lose the gun emplacements. Its a harsh world, if you want them why do you think you can swap bunkers for them?
Adding gun emplacements makes the formation more expensive.
Oh I don't suggest lowering the price, rather if you want emplacements you should be getting them as part of your fortifications. Tis one of those unifying things for the army.
I'm fine with that then. I just didn't want them getting any cheaper.

PDF fighter
8 AA5+ attacks is fine at 4 units for 200pts, heck they might still be too cheap.
These were one of the overpowered units under your first 'director's' cut list IIRC.
Its good I'm consistent :) If you are running with no ground flak they would be worth it, but everyone goes for a mix, especially when you always go second. They have numbers so they get through against heavish flak, but they will take defensive shots from bombers as well and there is no real secondary role for them with a grand total of 2/3 of an AP hit and 2/3's of an AT hit at 15cm on ground attack (if the enemy is in cover its half that) vs for a thunderbolt 1 AT hit and 1 2/3 of an AP hit. A wise they are 2 hits (tbolts) vs 2 2/3's. The numbers are there, the range isn't I would expect heavy casualties trying to cap a thawk.

Attack a Thunderhawk from the correct angle and you will recieve 1 AA4+ attack... and then you'll shoot at it with 6x/8x AA5+ attacks. Who cares if they're rubbish at ground attack if their AA is so good?

Honestly they were silly-broken when they were cheaper.

PDF bomber
3 for 250
Why?
No change in firepower, ups resilance and I thought you were anti popcorn so making things more expensive was the aim?
I could go for 3 for 275pts.

The story just wouldn't be quite so... sad... if it were the Salamanders who were involved.
Yes, hence the re-write. Tis just to answer the calls for new lists as the raven guard could do the same as the white scars but I'm unaware of them being ready (or course if they are I suggest a quick swap as they have a similar ethos?). But the Sallies are supposed to be nice and fluffy and all, so yes hard to justify!
The White Scars stay, they were chosen because they're not a Siege style army (they achieve their objectives within an hour when it took the Death Korps four months to achieve theirs) and because their 'rapid reaction' arrives late and kills innocent people (thereby ratcheting up the cosmic irony of the whole depressing little war).

Having a Raven Guard or similar 'rapid strike' army list could work, but the White Scars are the most playtested list around.




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