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Tank Rider special rule
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tank Rider special rule
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 1:40 pm 
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no cover benefit should be awarded


I've come around to this view.

The infantry should gain the benefit of increased speed (Due to riding the tank), but they shouldn't be able to gain the -1 to hit from touching the tank.

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J0k3r
 Post subject: Tank Rider special rule
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 1:47 pm 
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OK, heres a simplified take on the rule:

- Use normal mount/dismount rules.  THis encourages people to use double orders or risk leaving the infantry mounted
- AP weapons can be targeted against the armoured vehicles to hit the riding infantry as if the infantry were moving across open ground (which they are).  Specify no -1 to hit as they are not taking cover behind vehicles
- Riding inf must take a save if the vehicle is destroyed.  

Ignore the suggested additional save if vehicles are hit by AT fire as makes it too complicated.  As L4 says the bonuses here are rapid redeployment of infantry rather than using the tanks as cover to get into assaults.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Tank Rider special rule
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 2:05 pm 
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Wow, limited posting for a while and the concensus seems to swing over to what I was starting to prefer as well :) (Or option 2 of the three I was thinking of :) ), well I have a slight change to cc as well.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Tank Rider special rule
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 3:14 pm 
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You may want to have mandatory dismounting.  Staying mounted seems goofy for one, but also causes problems with the formation being assaulted with CC.  Think of this - if two enemy units come into BTB contact with a mounted Leman Russ, the unit on the top of the tank is technically 'trapped' which makes no sense.

I'd be fine with no cover modifier, although the rule is that you apply the cover modifer "generously" so I could go either way.

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J0k3r
 Post subject: Tank Rider special rule
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 3:35 pm 
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I have wondered that myself, and I thought that this then introduces the ability to mount at the start of an engage move and then dismount straight into combat.  For that matter the targetting changes become a moot point for the most part, only being an issue if you go near a unit on overwatch.

I would be tempted to include a clause that says they can not be trapped inside, thus can dismount during a counter charge (in fact didnt chris say the same thing in the OP).  THus if players really want to use tank riders to assault straight into combat they need to take a risk and set it up the turn beforehand which seems good and proper.




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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Tank Rider special rule
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:49 pm 
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The counter charge note is a good one.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Tank Rider special rule
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:52 pm 
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We do it as I said, just like mounting and dismounting from any AFV ... one stand per vehicle, no cover bonus. And just like if any vehicle is hit, the Inf save is relative. And just like any infantry caught in the open, they are vulnerable to AP(MW) fire. And if the vehicle is hit by AT/MW fire and is not KO'd, the riders must make a save ... Simple ...  :D

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Tank Rider special rule
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 5:02 pm 
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So L4 the infantry is as vulnerable to AT hits on the vehicle as AP hits on them? Note the imperium doesn't have reactive armour :)

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Tank Rider special rule
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 5:08 pm 
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I know that, but if  AT rounds hit the AFV, it might hit some of the infantry or some debris from the AT rounds shattering and bouncing off ... or both.

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ragnarok
 Post subject: Tank Rider special rule
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 7:27 pm 
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I would go for a KISS approch and give the AVS that you want your tank raiders to mount to have an extra transport capacity. (so russes would have transport 1 and chimeras would have transport 3).

If you want to be complicated, and who doesn't, then I would go for a rewrite of the core rulez.

Splitting ransport into two seperate catorgroies.

Transort inside, your normal tansport rulez

and transport outside.

units that are tranported in an open top vehichle have all the normal transport rulez ecpect that they can be targeted by AP fire and they can add their FF/CC to an assault.  FF if their transport isn't based in CC if it is (as per normal, ie non WE, rulez).

So:
Russ would be transport outside 1
Cminera would be transport  inside 2 outside 1
Junkatrukk transport outisde 2
Baneblade transport outside 2
shadowsword transport outside 1 (no one wants to be near a volcano cannon when it fires)

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Ginger
 Post subject: Tank Rider special rule
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 12:15 am 
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Guys - I think you are going to have to be a bit cautious here around just how this is going to work out:- Which formation moves first, what actions can each carry out etc. In practice, I have a horrible feeling that this would need to operate like WE embarkation, resulting in the following style of sequence summary :-
    Turn #1
    1) The tanks activate as normal
    2) the infantry move to the tanks and mount up (but may fire)

    Turn #2
    3) The tanks carry the infantry, who dismount at the end. The combined formations may fire on a single target, and are then considered separate.
    4) The infantry have no activation!

    Turn #3
    5,6) the separate formations go their different ways
Any other sequence would result in the infantry effectively gaining an activation in turn #2. It also leaves the two formations effectively intermingled at the end of turn#2.

The problem is that this leaves the infantry clinging onto the tank hulls at the end of turn#1, raising questions ?about whether they can assault together or not; target types if shot at; where BMs are allocated if there are two groups of infantry; the size of formations etc.
While most of these questions are probably simple to answer, they do add another layer of complexity to the whole game.

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J0k3r
 Post subject: Tank Rider special rule
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 2:10 am 
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Ginger- As I understand it the rule we are discussing only allows for transport within the same formation for the very complications you have laid out  :)  At least thats how Chris has suggested implementing the rule..

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Tank Rider special rule
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 8:59 am 
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Well, the rule would allow both - but the list would have a tourny rule saying same formation only (just like Ork forts).

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Ginger
 Post subject: Tank Rider special rule
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 1:29 pm 
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Actually, it would probably not be accepted in tournaments unless specifically included by the organiser.

As far as how it operates, perhaps we could work both ways if suitable words could be found - or is that getting too complex? so if the tanks are part of the same formation, operate under 1.7.5; otherwise follow the rules for WE transport under 3.3.1??

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Tank Rider special rule
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 2:23 pm 
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I think nearly all lists have intergrated WE transport outside of air assaults in tourney lists.

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