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Elysian List Issues

 Post subject: Re: Elysian List Issues
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:07 pm 
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mattthemuppet wrote:
Steve54 wrote:
CAPACAP isn't a EA rule, never has been and doesn't seem likely to become a rule so I really don't understand why it would be used for testing lists or in discussions over lists.


because some people play it that way and this is open development with free discussion? Might be worth remembering that.

Open development of lists for NetEA play - therefore using NetEA rules

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian List Issues
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:12 pm 
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mattthemuppet wrote:
zombocom wrote:
Steve54 wrote:
CAPACAP isn't a EA rule, never has been and doesn't seem likely to become a rule so I really don't understand why it would be used for testing lists or in discussions over lists.


Agreed. You can't take house rules into account when writing tournament scenario lists.


this isn't a list solely for use in tournaments though and tournament use isn't the sole crucible for testing whether or not a list is balanced. Clearly, widely and commonly used non-tournament rules shouldn't be used to drive the development of the list, but given that a large percentage of non-UK games are played outside of tournaments, they should at least be considered.
.

Nothing to do with country or tournaments. The idea of these lists is that anybody can meet another epic player and play against each other using balanced lists and rules. These lists are created in the framework of 3-5k points and the Gt scenario so that all lists are developed, tested and balanced from the some base. Using CAPACAP renders any testing, particularily of aircraft, suspect as would using other home rules or variations from that base framework like no marching+claiming, 10k games or tallest player winning strategy roll.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian List Issues
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:14 pm 
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erm, hello Steve, did you read the bit about the real issue with the Lightning fighter formation? Rather than trying and failing to convince you that there are people out there unlike yourself that use a slight and accepted variation of an existing rule (rather than the intentionally antagonistic and facetious examples you posited), let's focus on the bit that actually matters to the development of this list.


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian List Issues
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:31 pm 
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mattthemuppet wrote:
slight and accepted variation of an existing rule


CAPACAP isn't a slight variation. It appears to be, and personally I like the rule very much, but it has deep implications for aircraft balance.


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian List Issues
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:35 pm 
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mattthemuppet wrote:
erm, hello Steve, did you read the bit about the real issue with the Lightning fighter formation? Rather than trying and failing to convince you that there are people out there unlike yourself that use a slight and accepted variation of an existing rule (rather than the intentionally antagonistic and facetious examples you posited), let's focus on the bit that actually matters to the development of this list.

I understood we were waiting for Honda to address the issue. I'd be in favour of smaller fighter formations with the ability to stat one on CAP on turn 1 replacing an OW garrison - as I've stated previously.
CAPACAP isn't widely accepted or used and is far more than a slight change especially when we are discussing AA. Only one of those examples was facetious - both no marching and large points values would skew results nearly as much as CAPACAP.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian List Issues
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:58 pm 
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fair enough


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian List Issues
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:16 pm 
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Ulrik wrote:
mattthemuppet wrote:
slight and accepted variation of an existing rule


CAPACAP isn't a slight variation. It appears to be, and personally I like the rule very much, but it has deep implications for aircraft balance.


As much as I'd like to disagree, I am -over time- beginning to come to the same conclusion. Everyone I play with does CAPACAP but I think I am going to disclude it from my next tourney. Take the Elysians out of the discussion for the moment and the analysis of how large A/C formations suffer at the hands of smaller A/C formations with CAPACAP is a pretty convincing one and something I can retrospectively apply to many games.

But as I said, Honda has already agreed to break up the interceptors and is on the fence for the the SR3, so I think we're moving in the right direction.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian List Issues
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:47 pm 
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Moscovian wrote:
disclude it


Mosc, are you butchering the English language again?

It'll be interesting to disallow CAPACAP or even to exclude it from the rules used at the upcoming games day, especially as I'm someone who'd benefit from that exclusion (being an Eldar player). Gives me another excuse to kick Dave's 20 strong Thunderbolt armada in the nuts too.


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian List Issues
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:35 am 
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Jokes on you, I've been taking 4 Hunters in my ground pounding army lately...

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian List Issues
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:28 pm 
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Dave wrote:
Jokes on you, I've been taking 4 Hunters in my ground pounding army lately...


you bitch. I knew those Space Marine points changes were a bad idea :)

Mosc - will you be bringing your Elysians the weekend after next? I'll be happy to avoid Dave and play them if you're interested.


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian List Issues
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:46 pm 
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mattthemuppet wrote:
Dave wrote:
Jokes on you, I've been taking 4 Hunters in my ground pounding army lately...


you bitch. I knew those Space Marine points changes were a bad idea :)

Mosc - will you be bringing your Elysians the weekend after next? I'll be happy to avoid Dave and play them if you're interested.

Well, I certainly won't be playing him - I came ready for the 8th AF on wednesday and got downtown Hanoi-esque IAD. My heltalons were so afraid of the hunters that they only activated once in 4 turns.

Mosc, I'd be willing to test SR4 Elysians instead of fighting Dave again - you heard me; SR4 - let the bidding war begin :P

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian List Issues
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:51 pm 
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captPiett wrote:
Mosc, I'd be willing to test SR4 Elysians instead of fighting Dave again - you heard me; SR4 - let the bidding war begin :P


"Opponents will bid Strategy Rating to choose armies. The one who bids the lowest SR gets to play the Elysians."


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian List Issues
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:22 pm 
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mattthemuppet wrote:
Moscovian wrote:
disclude it


Mosc, are you butchering the English language again?


Merriam-Webster has it. It's an overt act of exclusion. Albeit a new word (up there with "proactive" and "fax" and "suck me") it is acceptable by forum standards where we use words like capacap and dwwfy.

Let's use it in a sentence... "Mattthemuppet was discluded from playing Epic at the tournament because of his general snarky attitude and overuse of the word 'pram'." ;D
---
While I appreciate you guys potentially bidding yourselves down to SR(-2) I think it might be too soon to write off the Elysians. The changes coming down the pipeline IMO will have a reasonable effect.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian List Issues
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:37 pm 
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Moscovian wrote:
Merriam-Webster has it.


calling Merriam-Webster a dictionary is an insult to self-respecting dictionaries the world over. Besides, any "word" that has a Facebook group devoted to its acceptance isn't a word

Moscovian wrote:
and overuse of the word 'pram'." ;D


don't even get me started on shopping trolley vs. shopping cart


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian List Issues
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:58 pm 
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Okay, let's get some things straight, Matt.
They are antennas, not aerials.
They are cookies, not biscuits.
You turn on your windshield wipers, not windscreen wipers.
It's not real tea unless it comes with ice in it.
And stop putting the letter 'U' where it doesn't belong (ex. labour, armour, Space Mariune, Warhammeur 40uK, United Kingdom, et ceterua).

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