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Marauders poll and review
No change 4%  4%  [ 1 ]
Decrease points (specify below) 36%  36%  [ 9 ]
Increase to DC2 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Lower save to 5+ and increase to DC2 24%  24%  [ 6 ]
Change speed to Fighter-Bomber 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Increase Bomb racks to 3BP 24%  24%  [ 6 ]
Other (specify below) 12%  12%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 25

Marauders poll and review
ortron
 Post subject: Marauders poll and review
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:57 am 
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G'day

Recently trialed 2DC and 5+ save in a game against marines. The extra DC is definately worth the points. I bombed just about every turn within the marine AA unbrella and against enemy CAP. Whilst damage was sustained the extra DC meant that the planes still made it to the target.

Not sure on the 3BP. I think this would cause a cost hike.

Finally what model are people thinking of when they post. I'd like the stats to represent the FW variant but i imagine we have to use the SG one?

I remember a thread that looked at making the SG type a seperate plane called the avenger? could this be an option also?
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Soren
 Post subject: Marauders poll and review
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:45 pm 
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Marine AA is useless against DC2 5+. too few shots, too expensive, too few damage. Eldar ?n Orks will encounter fewer problems getting rid of the bombers. Hard to say, anybody good in math?  :) How does the survivability change with DC2 5+?

my 0,002 cents




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Dave
 Post subject: Marauders poll and review
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:20 pm 
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(Soren @ Jul. 03 2007,11:45)
QUOTE
Marine AA is useless against DC2 5+. too few shots, too expensive, too few damage. Eldar ?n Orks will encounter fewer problems getting rid of the bombers. Hard to say, anybody good in math?  :) How does the survivability change with DC2 5+?

my 0,002 cents

I thought TRC did a took number crunching on this.  I can't find the link though at the moment.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Marauders poll and review
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:12 pm 
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I did, got it wrong, Neal corrected me, his wisdom is

2DC 5+ armor
Chance of 1 hit killing an aircraft - ~11%
Chance of 2 hits killing at least 1 aircraft - ~52%
Chance of 2 hits killing 2 aircraft - 0%
Chance of 3 hits killing at least 1 aircraft - ~62%
Chance of 3 hits killing 2 aircraft - ~6%
Chance of 4 hits killing at least 1 aircraft - ~77%
Chance of 4 hits killing 2 aircraft - ~27%

2DC 6+ armor
1 hit kill 1 - 14%
2 hits kill 1+ - 72%
2 hits kill 2 - 0%
3 hits kill 1+ - 78%
3 hits kill 2 - 10%
4 hits kill 1+ - 93%
4 hits kill 2 - 54%

4+ armor
1 hit kill 1 - 50%
2 hits kill 1+ - 75%
2 hits kill 2 - 25%
3 hits kill 1+ - 12.5%
3 hits kill 2 - 37.5%
4 hits kill 1+ - 94%
4 hits kill 2 - 56%

===

As we all know, getting only 1-2 flak hits in a volley is the most common. With 2DC there is almost no chance of catastrophic damage to a single formation. In the absence of catastrophic damage, it's possible for the 2DC versions to "rotate" units to preserve the damaged units. It doesn't work against interceptors that can choose an approach path, but it definitely works versus ground flak.

When you consider spreading the hits out over several volleys, even 2DC, 6+ armor is easily twice as durable as the current 4+.

If you consider 250 to be the "proper" point value at the current stats, then doubling the durability would mean that the value for the formation with 2DC 6+ would probably be 325-350.

Personally, I favor a simple point change to 250.

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orangesm
 Post subject: Marauders poll and review
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:07 pm 
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CODE

               2DC 6+ armor     4+ armor
1 hit kill 1      14%                     50%
2 hits kill 1+  72%                     75%
2 hits kill 2      0%                      25%
3 hits kill 1+  78%                   12.5%
3 hits kill 2     10%                   37.5%
4 hits kill 1+   93%                     94%
4 hits kill 2     54%                      56%


I do not understand a few things - 1) how is it impossible for 2 hits to kill 2 Marauders if 1 hit has a 14% chance?  2) there is a higher chance to kill 1+ with 3 hits with 2DC 6+ Armor than 4+?

I actually like the 2DC 6+ - one shot does not take down the aircraft - that addresses the inability to penetrate airspace (50% losses from 1 hit with current rules holy cow!)

It should not be easy to smack a Marauder out of the air with a single AA platform.  If a players entire Air Defense consist of a single Hunter he is going to have problems other than just the Marauders.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Marauders poll and review
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:12 pm 
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I support 2DC in some form.


I also think that 250pts is still overpricing the current Marauders.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Marauders poll and review
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:36 pm 
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(orangesm @ Jul. 04 2007,01:07)
QUOTE
I do not understand a few things

That serves me right for not checking and just cut and pasting.

1) how is it impossible for 2 hits to kill 2 Marauders if 1 hit has a 14% chance?


As with 2dc both hits are assigned to the first plane.

2) there is a higher chance to kill 1+ with 3 hits with 2DC 6+ Armor than 4+?

Thats an error it should be 83%
Edit no its not, as Neal points out - I forgot criticals.

I actually like the 2DC 6+ - one shot does not take down the aircraft - that addresses the inability to penetrate airspace (50% losses from 1 hit with current rules holy cow!)

Left to my own devices I would change the weapon fit to the FW one, make it 3bp and 2dc 6+ save and go from there.

The quick and dirty one though is the easiest - thats 250 points/3BP

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Marauders poll and review
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:37 pm 
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1) how is it impossible for 2 hits to kill 2 Marauders if 1 hit has a 14% chance?


With DC2, both hits will be allocated to a single plane.  Even if the first hit crits, the second hit was still applied.  The second craft is untouched.

Also, note that applies even if the lead aircraft only has 1 DC left.  As a DC2 WE, it is allocated the first 2 hits.  Current DC doesn't change that.

2) there is a higher chance to kill 1+ with 3 hits with 2DC 6+ Armor than 4+?

I think I inverted that %.  It's probably supposed to be 87.5% (100%-12.5%).

Edit:  Just checked it - 87.5%
Edit again:  In case it's not clear, all those numbers are based on a single volley of AA fire.

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orangesm
 Post subject: Marauders poll and review
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:05 pm 
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Left to my own devices I would change the weapon fit to the FW one, make it 3bp and 2dc 6+ save and go from there.

The quick and dirty one though is the easiest - thats 250 points/3BP

I think the problem then is two fold - what miniature is the Marauder Bomber and what should a true Bomber be capable of.

I have said before, but it is worth saying again - I designed two list where the only differences are where the AA and BP come from - in one it is all ground based in the other all air based. 2 Thunderbolts replace the Hydras while 4 Marauders replace 9 Basilisk.  

The BP effect is similar but the survivability is not.

Any opponent AA (be it ground or air units) along the path of the 2 Marauder Formations or Thunderbolts gets to fire at each formation.  

So if I want to attack a single formation with my 4 Marauder Bombers, AA along the path gets to fire at each formation in turn, (50% chance with a single hit each time) possible cutting my available BP from a total of 8 to a total of 4.  

The formation of Basilisk does not face the same threat, but is more exposed to direct attack by fast units or teleporters, but nearby units can lend a hand.  The Artillery Company can be defended while the Marauders can not.  So I think the changing to a WE and DC2 Armor 6+ is probably the best option to make the choice of Marauders vs Artillery Company centered not on which is actually more survivable, but based on playing style. (I am in the USAF - I do not want to use Artillery are you kidding me? Airpower!  :laugh: )

The 2 BP is fine because you get a similar amount of BP for similar cost elsewhere.  It is actually more effective to have 2 formations at 4 BP than to have 1 formation at 9 BP when attacking any target (same chances to hit, same BM produced, 1 extra template!).  The arguments for models being capable of more (FW) can be solved by saying Marauders providing close air support do not drop all their bombs at once and remain on station to provide support as needed with their remaining payloads.

If we wanted to add a high altitude Marauder Flight/Harbinger bombardment I think an orbital bombardment could be created to achieve this effect and be quiet fluffy.




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nealhunt
 Post subject: Marauders poll and review
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:11 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Jul. 03 2007,20:12)
QUOTE
I also think that 250pts is still overpricing the current Marauders.

What would you price them at currently, and why?

At 250, that makes them slightly less expensive per-plane than Phoenix bombers.  Marauders have marginally less durability but more firepower and better AA defense.  I'd say 3 of them in a formation would be better than Phoenixes.  The per-plane price break is due to the impact of formation size on durability.  Otherwise, I think they would cost at least as much if not more than Phoenixes.

Likewise, that's the equivalent of 5 Ork Fighta bommas, which are considered pretty good aircraft.  Fighta bommas are more durable, basically due to the fact that a lucky hit does so much damage to the Marauders.  Once you factor in BMs for lost aircraft and reduced activation rolls, though,  the Orks aren't any better.  The Marauders still have a touch more firepower.

Both of those look about right at 250 to me.

Everyone has had Marauders tanked by just a couple AA shots, but it's just as likely that the Marauders can have a good run and shake off 3-4 hits without any damage.  I've seen them turn the tide of battle due to a handful of lucky armor saves.

2DC 6+ would actually make them more consistent in that regard and reducing high-luck-factor units is generally good in my book.  It is just a really big boost.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Marauders poll and review
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:48 pm 
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Everyone has had Marauders tanked by just a couple AA shots, but it's just as likely that the Marauders can have a good run and shake off 3-4 hits without any damage.  I've seen them turn the tide of battle due to a handful of lucky armor saves.


A flight of Marauders will pass 4 armour saves in a row 12.5% of the time.

On average, two hits will down the first plane, and then the second is a BM-riddled mess which will quite likely decide to skip the following turn, and even if it does come back, it's now only BP2 (significantly worse than BP3/4) and is unlikely to do a large ammount of damage during the rest of the game. It'll probably die the turn it comes back too, as its weapons have such a short range they're guaranteed to be in the enemy's AA bubble.


DC2, 5+/6+ armour, and you can get at least one turn of flying through the flak.

It's not a boost, it's a balance.

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orangesm
 Post subject: Marauders poll and review
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:22 pm 
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Just checked something - I am taking back my concession that it does not need to be BP3 - the Hell Talon is BP2 and the Marauder is a dedicated Bomber and so should have a higher BP than the Chaos Fighter-Bomber.  I will however say that a DC2 6+ Armor, BP3 Marauder should cost 325 pts for 2 or the cost for the Hell Talon needs to be reduced to 250 (whatever one is saying fo the Marauder currently).




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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Marauders poll and review
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:55 pm 
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Te helltalon needs to get Ignore cover back on its guns and a few other things to (see relavant htreads).

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ortron
 Post subject: Marauders poll and review
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:07 am 
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I'll have an opportunity to trial this again soon.

Shall i go with:

2DC, 6+ Save, 3BP  for 325pts?

Since we are looking at such big changes, is it worth adding a tail TL HB as well since most people seem to prefer the FW variant.
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