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Death Korps of Krieg v1.7
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.7
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:32 am 
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Replies to OrangeSM:

I would say that neither the Tank Squadron should not get a 'rare' variant Leman Russ or that the Platoon should get 2 or 3.


EDIT:

Bold emphasis mine, in what I assume is the correct manner.

I was considering allowing 0-2 rare variants in the Tank Platoon, I dont think it'd be overpowering and it would be flavourful.

Is there a reason to let all units take a Basilisk and Manticore platform?

Yep.

Though perhaps not reason enough.

Candidate for reexamination.

The Marauder Destroyer would fit into the List well I think, possibly as a single Aircraft. We (as a community) need to develop the Destroyer more accurately along the lines of the Marauder Bomber and not as an independent Aircraft development.

As a CAS aircraft I think the Marauder Destroyer would fit well too.

But currently I'm trying to cut down on variants so until there's some more space, it's out.

[quote]I can see a Regiment having 3-5 Infantry Companies for any one of the support Companies, be it Armored, Artillery, Mech Inf, etc.  The list definitely has an Infantry feel to it, with some nice supporting units. It feels distinict from the current list and looks very playable. [quote]

As far as theme goes, it's already much more concise, and I hope we can streamline it further.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.7
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:50 am 
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(Lord Inquisitor @ Dec. 14 2006,23:30)
QUOTE
So you want to make it an "official" list then?

The most sensible thing to do at this stage (if you haven't already done so) is write out a short blurb about what you think the Death Korps of Krieg should be about. This can just be a bullet points list of the things that are good/bad/unique to the Death Korps.

For example, one of the things that comes to mind with me is that the Death Korps are extremely brave ... or rather fatalistic. Perhaps some kind of army special rule reducing BM in some way - not too much, they shouldn't have ATSKNF. Maybe they require MORE BM than one per unit to break the formation? Something like that?

The Death Korps Doctrines in 40k are:


- Rough Rider Squadrons
- Iron Discipline
- Die Hards
- Hardened Fighters
- Storm Trooper Squads
- Heavy Weapon Platoons.



This translates as a force that has:

- Rough Riders (Already in)

- Good Officers that inspire their men to rally when they are broken (Perhaps Officers, if still alive, could grant +1 to rally the formation they are in if it becomes broken?)

- DKoK units never count as being outnumbered in Close Combat (It would seem simple enough a rule to port across? Too powerful?)

- They have +1 Weapon Skill in hand-to hand fighting (Already in, they have 5+CC instead of 6+)

- They can use Storm Trooper Squads (Already in, as DK 'Grenadiers')

- They use lots of Heavy Weapon support platforms (Already in).


So as further methods of theming the infantry, they could get:

- +1 to rally a formation if it contains an Officer unit.
- The enemy can never claim +1 combat resolution for outnumbering Death Korps Infantry Company formations when calculating the winner of an Engagement.



The Death Korps are also known to make 'extensive use of entrenchments', but I am literally terrified of introducing them after seeing how extremely powerful a Barran list making full use of them can be.

I'd probably introduce them as an inferior version of the Barran Siegemasters Siegeworks (As the DKoK is the 'attacking' Siege Regiment, their entrenchments would be less solid. Think British versus German trenchbuilding ethos in WW1).

Something like a 5+ cover save to entrenched Infantry would seem to be appropriate... and I'd make it more expensive than the Barran Siegeworks.




Other than these nuggest of background, I've been focusing the list on the snippets I've gleaned from ForgeWorld (Those largely being given in the form of images of current / future additions to the model range).


I've been hinting at what I see the Death Korps as in the various unit flavour texts, but I'll try and expand the army's introduction text in the next iteration of the list.


Uh, yes, it'd be cool if the list ended up 'official'.

Ridiculously cool. :)




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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.7
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:08 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Dec. 14 2006,18:50)
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Uh, yes, it'd be cool if the list ended up 'official'.

Ridiculously cool. :)

Well, if that's the direction you want to go, I'll go through when I have a chance and REALLY tear your list apart ?:D

The not-outnumbered in combat thing is a possibility. I wouldn't worry about the improved officer thing - that's too small detail to worry about.

How about:

March Unto Death
Death Korps of Krieg are fatalistic in the extreme and will advance against insurmountable odds. To represent this, any Death Korps of Krieg formation (not aircraft or titan formations) is broken when the number of Blast Markers exceeds the number of units. In addition, any unit that suffers hits from excess Blast Markers (or from losing close combat) receives a special 6+ save.

These would be characterful enough without gross points value effects.

To be honest, you could combine your "never outnumbered" idea with the above instead of the 6+ save, perhaps, but the 6+ save protects them outside of combat.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.7
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:13 am 
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It might be interesting to give the Death Korps a special Invulnerable save against hackdowns from losing an Engagement too, for the same reason.

IIRC, allowing formations an extra blast marker before breaking is exactly the same interpretation for the 40k 'Iron Discipline' rule given in the Elysian Drop Troops list.

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orangesm
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.7
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:42 am 
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1 additional BM to push them over the limit?  So they do not break when they have 1 BM/unit, but 1 over and the unit breaks?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.7
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:34 pm 
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(Hena @ Dec. 15 2006,03:39)
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(Evil and Chaos @ Dec. 15 2006,01:25)
QUOTE
BP3 is deserved IMHO considering the short range, fluff text & 40k rules... I'm considering dropping Lance.

Then you need to drop the formation size. That 18BP is not something that you should get. Currently only megagargant can generate that many BPs and it isn't meant for tournaments. 10 to 12BP should be cap of any artillery (and definitely rare amount at that) unless there is really great need to over it.

The great need is simple... Meduasa are very short range, and thus they will almost certainly die to a counter-attack every time they're used (6+ armour save).

BP3 stays, as does formation size 6.... for now.

Oh and a Manticore Artillery Company can reach BP18 if it's wanted.


You're aware that this would make them more expensive than their self-propelled equivilients... which have the ability to move and fire in the same turn?

Quite. But as it's long range artillery (can shoot anywhere on the table practically) it doesn't need to move. The times that I've seen IG artillery redeploy can be counted with one hand. Because of that 0cm move isn't that detrimental (and with trojans they can still fall back in case of air assault/teleport/etc). But 175 for 3 manticores is too cheap.

I'll consider upping the price a little, but making them more expensive when taking Trojans is out of the question. Without Trojans they all die to hackdown after losing Engagements since they cannot flee more than 15cm away.

And even if you do take Trojans, that's 9 more 6+ FF attacks at best... on average 1 and a half hits... that's not enough to compensate for the loss of the ability to move and fire.

Thick Rear Armour isn't justified by the 40k rules / background iirc (Though I may be wrong there).

I'd like to keep the full selection of Superheavies... the two 'common' Superheavies, plus the two short-ranged 'Siege' Superheavies.
Well you know my thoughts about WEs and 40k so I'll leave that 40k rules bit there.

And you know my belief that you should not just go making up new abilities, weapons or statistics for pre-defined vehicles.

This is not our universe.

[quote]But I'd still argue about dropping shadowsword. That is long range WE killer and pinpoint at that. The bits that I've read about DK here seems to point out WW1 army. So I'd go with heavy barrages if long range, but not pinpoint.

I'm with you that there might be a case to drop it.

The only problem is that the Barrans get both Shadowswords and Deathstrikes...

So should they stay or should they go?

About the fortifications. Other thing to remember that you can allow only trenches and and gun emplacements. So razorwire and bunkers go. And the saves can be worse in them.

Agreed.




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J0k3r
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.7
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:08 pm 
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Id also be in favour of keeping the shadowsword and death strikes as they fit the long range supporting fire that should typify a seige style army as well as short range killing power.  Indeed these sorts of weapons are best suited to a seige army where their slow deployment and transport times allow them to be brought to bear, rather than in a fast armoured regiment that could be espected to outstrip slow superheavy asets.

Talking of seige works- one of the things that strikes me as odd is that the DKOK should be assaulting fortified positions, rather than just sheltering in them.  How about including a special scenario option that represents this, something like:

3000 points game.

DKOK- 3000 points of troops with option of purchasing light fortifications (As C&E suggested- light, british/french style trenchworks and artillery positions)

Opposition- 2000 points of troops with fortification options taken from barran list.  Enough to make it a tough customer without overpowering.

Set up- Fortification rules as per barran list for opposition and DKOK.

Objectives-Break opposition half into 3 sectors, each containing a blitz.  Opposition score for none shall pass on each sector, DKOK score for holding blitz.  Victory if either side has 2 VP on turn 4 (game longer to account for seige style of play). The idea here is to introduce some interesting choices on where to attack or defend.  Either the defender places all the eggs in one basket and holds 2 blitzes strongly with a token force on the third, or spreads the forces thinly and responds to where the DKOK player attacks.

I would stay away from having fortifications in the main list though-as this would make the tournament list harder to balance.  Perhaps they could be included in an aditional optional rules section together with a scenario.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.7
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:22 pm 
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Jok3r: That sounds very cool to include. :D


I'm still tempted to work light Trenchworks into the Tournament list in however, but of everything, they will need the most playtesting.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.7
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 4:32 pm 
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Based on the comments so far about DKoK style I would recommend:

Focus on the siege-breaker aspect.  This seems most in keeping with the style you seem to be most eager to try and it is notably distinct from both Steel Legion and Baran.  The stuff necessary for that concept would also let the list double quite well as a city-fight list.

If someone wants a defensive Krieg list with fortifications and what not, point them to the Baran list as a "counts as" for Krieg on the defense.  You might even do an appendix for non-GT games with recommendations for trading out certain Krieg formations for Baran formations, e.g. Russ instead of Ragnaroks.

Coordinate with Honda on the way in which to represent "elite" IG forces.  It looks like the Elysians and DKoK are similar in the kinds of bonuses they get in 40K.  They could easily be identical in Epic.

===

I know I had some siegebreaker suggestions in the other thread, but more specific to 1.7:

1)  I'd kill the arty company and replace it with the Medusas.  On a rapidly moving offense you need stuff close by so you can coordinate quickly.  Danger close can turn into friendly fire by the time a fire mission is relayed and performed.

2)  If you want another company option, you could consider the Deathriders.  A spearhead formation charging through the enemy line and all that.  Plus, a Deathrider army is way cool as a concept.  It would give the list an entirely different play style that, afaik, is still very much in keeping with the background and flavor.

3) If you want to work them in, Conquerors could be their own formation.  They could parallel the Siegfried scout tanks in the Baran list and pick up Scout or Walker.  Personally, I think a Conqueror formation would be a better choice of tank variety than the Vanquisher/Destroyer split (see #4).

4) I think your armor (including SHT) selection is pretty good.  You could combine Destoyers and Vanquishers (i.e. delete one or the other) because their battlefield role is virtually identical, as is their ability to perform that role.  I'm not entirely convinced on the costs.  I don't think I would pay 65 points for a Vanquisher when I could have a stock Russ and I'm still not sure the SHTs are equivalent.

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orangesm
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.7
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:13 pm 
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Replying to neal's first comment

I think a sector(s) of the battle line that Epic can represent, having the Artillery Company as a choice is important.  Possibly making it a support formation would make sense. The Medusa formation directly supports the storming troops, but those troops take time to get there.  Far ranging Artillery will bombard what the breakers are advancing on.

This is the Imperial Guard,  friendly fire is not entirely unheard of.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.7
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:53 pm 
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1)  I'd kill the arty company and replace it with the Medusas.  On a rapidly moving offense you need stuff close by so you can coordinate quickly.  Danger close can turn into friendly fire by the time a fire mission is relayed and performed.


I'm not opposed to this... goodly ammounts of artillery would still be available from the Support Formations.

2)  If you want another company option, you could consider the Deathriders.  A spearhead formation charging through the enemy line and all that.  Plus, a Deathrider army is way cool as a concept.  It would give the list an entirely different play style that, afaik, is still very much in keeping with the background and flavor.

IIRC the Deathrider Company was in the first version of the list, but was removed because people were worried about the all-garrisoned Deathrider army. It's certainly a Siegebreaker theme though!

3) If you want to work them in, Conquerors could be their own formation.  They could parallel the Siegfried scout tanks in the Baran list and pick up Scout or Walker.  Personally, I think a Conqueror formation would be a better choice of tank variety than the Vanquisher/Destroyer split (see #4).

Not a bad idea, a small (3 or 6-tank?) formation could represent the archetype nicely.

4) I think your armor (including SHT) selection is pretty good.  You could combine Destoyers and Vanquishers (i.e. delete one or the other) because their battlefield role is virtually identical, as is their ability to perform that role.  I'm not entirely convinced on the costs.  I don't think I would pay 65 points for a Vanquisher when I could have a stock Russ and I'm still not sure the SHTs are equivalent.

Aye Vanquishers could go, especially if the Conquror was brought in (Though I'm not sure that it would fit the trench-crossing Krieg 100%... it's more of a Cavalry Tank than an Infantry-escort Tank).

The SHT's usefulness will depend on your armylist composition I suspect... I'd like to try and balance the two Collector's SHT's anyway.

I've gone with the commonly suggested Arcs & FW stats etc for the two Common SHT's as I guess you noticed.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Death Korps of Krieg v1.7
PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 5:14 pm 
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A bunch of updates going to V1.71:

Lance special rule removed
Leman Russ Destroyer given MW3+ shot instead as a consequence.
Trojan FF down to 6+
Death Riders moved back to Company status.


Version 1.71

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