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Elysian Air Units
semajnollissor
 Post subject: Elysian Air Units
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:17 pm 
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Quote (Tactica @ 20 Mar. 2006 (13:45))
Vehicles and aircraft made on Cypri Mundi are called the Cypri Mundi pattern vehicle.

[note the substandard work ethic and the ork like management. Shoddy craftsmenship would be a compliment in some cases. The inquisition is pretty sure the Adeptus Mechanicus on this planet are puttin the majority of their efforts into things other than Imperial construction. They are constantly under the inquisitional eye of scrutany]

Aw, why do you gotta pick on Cypri Mundi? Those guys work hard, and they deserve respect. You're probably just jealous that they have a better union than those chumps on Ryza. And just because over half of the worker-servators suffer from disfiguring algae infections is no reason to call them ork-like. It's damp in those service tunnels, they can't help it.

If you wanna pick on somebody, try those losers over on Voss. I mean, they're always saying how their prow is better than everyone elses, but I don't see none of them around. Can't be that much better then.

Their are several other and far more renown forgeworlds. Some of them are humungus by comparison to Cypri Mundi - such as Armageddon. One of the larger forgeworlds...

Er, Armageddon is a hive world (which are also known for their prodigious industrial output).
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Tactica
 Post subject: Elysian Air Units
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:19 pm 
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Quote (semajnollissor @ 20 Mar. 2006 (14:17))

Aw, why do you gotta pick on Cypri Mundi? Those guys work hard, and they deserve respect. You're probably just jealous that they have a better union than those chumps on Ryza. And just because over half of the worker-servators suffer from disfiguring algae infections is no reason to call them ork-like. It's damp in those service tunnels, they can't help it.

LMAO - 'algae infections' - that can't be a good thing.

If you wanna pick on somebody, try those losers over on Voss. I mean, they're always saying how their prow is better than everyone elses, but I don't see none of them around. Can't be that much better then.

LMAO - Its just a mismanaged marketing department... :p


Their are several other and far more renown forgeworlds. Some of them are humungus by comparison to Cypri Mundi - such as Armageddon. One of the larger forgeworlds...
Er, Armageddon is a hive world (which are also known for their prodigious industrial output).
Definitely a hive world, but can't they be a forgeworld too? Clearly there are several armageddon pattern vehicles rolling out of there. They are home to the Steel Legion's mass produced armored co's and mech infantry.

I guess if you have that much labor on the ready - you can do some amazing things with production.

You'd have thought they would have figured out how to replicate those pretty sophisticated archaic pattern machines too though... appearently these things are the 'magic' that allows the forgeworld to produce the vehicles... one has to wonder how the adeptus gets that 'machine spirit' into the land raiders and titans though... although, I think that's one of the big mysteries about the 40K universe.

On each forgeworld, there's appearently these massive pattern specific relic-machines that the adeptus maintain but cannot replicate. Without them - for some reason - appearently there can be no production. Occasionally, on newly explored worlds - they come across one of these pattern specific relic-machines that were buried in the ruin or deep within some forgotten complex or 'in mountain' cavern. Occasionally they find one that can produce some fantastic vehicle/titan that the Adeptus thought was either lost or that they only had 1 or 2 of.

As some of of the core design history goes - these things can also have the stuff of chaos in them too... then, they make tainted vehicles - heh... there was some soft back book on this some time ago. Can't recall which one anymore.



Heh... silly forgeworlds and their adeptus cronies... :p

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Honda
 Post subject: Elysian Air Units
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:40 am 
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I'm going to try to rephrase this a different way, because my message is not getting across.

1. Cypri Mundi pattern aircraft: I put these aircraft patterns into the list so that on the off chance that someone wanted to play with the list as it was, and they wanted to use aircraft, then they could use THOSE aircraft until we formalized the "experimental" aircraft.

I had no intention of keeping the Cypri Mundi aircraft in the Elysian list.

2. I have no intention of revising the stats of existing units, especially aircraft. Besides extending professional courtesy to those who put the original effort in, there has yet to be a follow on list that has the authority to do so. IF there is a beef with "other" list entries, then those concerns should be taken up with the Epic Rules Committee, not here. This is not the place to change history. We are here to write history.

3. I want us to look at the experimental aircraft list with the goal of getting them to a point where they can be folded into the land units.

Let's face it, the Elysians have no artillery, no War Engines, and no Super Heavy Tank, nor will they. What heavy hitters they have will have to come from the aircraft portion of the list.

So let us focus on changing and shaping what we have control over. Remember, if we expect to get this list into some sort of shape where it can be presented to the ERC, we have to use their guidelines, otherwise this will just end up being something that never gets very far.

For Elysia!




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Cosmic Serpent
 Post subject: Elysian Air Units
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:37 am 
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@Honda - nope, didn't get anything.  I will PM you again.

I think I agree with everyone here - for now, keep the aircraft as standard.  I think we'll find the probably work OK, but I am also of the opinion that we should be using the aircraft stats they use in IA3 - not sure I see the need for every version, but that's not a huge issue.

My take - leave them as normal for now.  We'll look at them in a while to see how things are playing out.
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Elysian Air Units
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:50 am 
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Quote (Tactica @ 20 Mar. 2006 (22:19))

one has to wonder how the adeptus gets that 'machine spirit' into the land raiders and titans though... although, I think that's one of the big mysteries about the 40K universe.


Fortran.



Plane wise I have to pitch in for the poor old thunderbolt. It is a sterling light ground support choice and goes into ever competitive list I've ever made, winning a lot of games for me.

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Cosmic Serpent
 Post subject: Elysian Air Units
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:54 am 
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Yes, I would agree - the Thunderbolt should be a staple in all Imperial lists.

Just wish the stats were what the actual model has and not some wierd transformation from older Epic versions.
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Tactica
 Post subject: Elysian Air Units
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:11 am 
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Quote (Cosmic Serpent @ 20 Mar. 2006 (20:54))
Yes, I would agree - the Thunderbolt should be a staple in all Imperial lists.

Just wish the stats were what the actual model has and not some wierd transformation from older Epic versions.

Ditto for the most part. I do think we should start with IA3 variants since IA3 gives something to start with. I think we can make some obvious tweaks - like eliminate duplicately named weapons with different effects... and we can reduce all 120cm ranged weapons down to 45cm and change their names to "Aero" in the beginning of the weapon name...

But to get us started - I quote from IA3 with their typose included... pg 313... (TRC, I hope you are sitting down. :p )

Lightning Fighter
Fighter
armor: 6+
CC: n/a
FF: n/a
Long Autocannon, 45cm, AP5+/AT6+/AA6+, FFA
Twin Lascannons, 30cm, AT4+/AA4+, FFA
2x Hellstrike Missiles, 120cm, AT4+, One shot

Lightning Strike
Fighter
armor: 6+
CC: n/a
FF: n/a
Twin Lascannons, 30cm, AT4+/AA4+, FFA
3x Hellstrike Missiles, 120cm, AT4+, One shot

Thunderbolt (Missile Armed)
Fighter
armor: 6+
CC: n/a
FF: n/a
2x Twin Autocannon, 30cm, AP4+/AT5+/AA5+, FFA
Twin Lascannons, 30cm, AT4+/AA4+, FFA
2x Hellstrike Missiles, 120cm, AT4+, One shot

Thunderbolt (Bomb Armed)
Fighter
armor: 6+
CC: n/a
FF: n/a
2x Twin Autocannon, 30cm, AP4+/AT5+/AA5+, FFA
Twin Lascannons, 30cm, AT4+/AA4+, FFA
Bombs, 15cm, 2BP, One shot

Marauder Bomber
Aircraft, WE
Bomber
Armor: 6+
CC: n/a
FF: n/a
2x twin heavy bolters, 15cm, AA5+, --
Twin Lascannons, 45cm, AT4+/AA4+, FFA
Bombs bay payload, 15cm, 4BP, One shot
Underwing bombs, 15cm, 4BP, One shot

Notes: DC2, Critical Hit Effect: The bomber's engines are seriously damaged, the pilot loses control and the aircraft crashes.

Marauder Destroyer
Aircraft, WE
Bomber
Armor: 6+
CC: n/a
FF: n/a
3x twin autocannons, 30cm, AP4+/AT5+/AA5+, FFA
twin heavy bolters, 15cm, AA5+, --
twin assault cannons, 15cm, AA4+, --
Bombs bay payload, 15cm, 2BP, One shot
4x Hellstrike Missiles, 120cm, AT4+, One shot

Notes: DC2, Critical Hit Effect: The bomber's engines are seriously damaged, the pilot loses control and the aircraft crashes.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Elysian Air Units
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:35 am 
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I have to ask - out of amusement mostly - what are the points values for those planes?

On the plus side I will no longer fear Nightwings - 4 of those thunderbolts would get rid of a squadron quite nicely in one pass! :)

So the author says they are unpointable - what does that tell you about doing epic A aircraft stats?

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Tactica
 Post subject: Elysian Air Units
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:37 am 
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no points, intended for non-point games and the author says they are vicious in regular games.

So... in order for us to mold their planes into E:A, we'd have some work to do... i.e. to Honda's point and vision.

cheers,

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Cosmic Serpent
 Post subject: Elysian Air Units
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:46 am 
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Agree - I wish they would have given them points values as well.

I haven't played with them, but looking at their stats - seems like they'd be pretty good at wrecking stuff.
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ortron
 Post subject: Elysian Air Units
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:24 pm 
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Thanks for posting the FW variants.. quite interesting.

Using these as a guide would be good start indeed. However, if i may make one suggestion. That is if the model shows the weapon then make sure its in the stats and don't include something that isn't shown (bomb bays exempt). I think this is something that annoyed people with the initial rules, having a model with 1 weapon and the rules saying another. Examples include the IG marauder, SM dreadnaughts and others.

I would look to the actual models, rather than the FW or GW rules as the final say as to what has what. On that theory a standard lightning would have the lascannons and autocannon and the strike would have lascannons and 6 hellstrikes? I know they can take other gear but i think this would make it real easy to justify. What U see is what U get!

cheers
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Honda
 Post subject: Elysian Air Units
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:57 pm 
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Take a look at the updated version just posted. I have taken a stab at points costs. I'm sure they will change.

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Tactica
 Post subject: Elysian Air Units
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:55 pm 
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@Honda,

I'm feeling dense today... where did you put the updated stats/points?

:p

Nevermind, I just demystified myself. I've posted a question... Avenger?

Cheers,




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Tactica
 Post subject: Elysian Air Units
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:38 pm 
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Honda,

Just reviewed your updated experimental army list aircraft versions...

1)  Cypra Mundi Pattern should also be noted on the Maurader that you are using in the main list.

2)  No aircraft weapon range should go over 45cm as an established guideline of E:A

3)  "LONG" Autocannon (72" in 40K) on the experimental Lightning Fighter should be 45cm on E:A aircraft as FW has suggested.

Note, the regular autocannon (48" in 40K) and twin autocannons (48" in 40K) are 30cm on E:A aircraft.

4)  Your experimental Maurader Bomber and Maurader Destroyer should both be appropriately named as such. Lose Avenger - its an Eldar name!

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Tactica
 Post subject: Elysian Air Units
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:39 pm 
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5)  Lightning & Lightning Strike should either have 9 known patterns in existence. The most common are Cypra Mundi, Bakka, or Hydraphur Pattern designation. In order to be politically correct, we should lable the one in our list by a particular pattern. I would recommend the Bakka.

Also, some text that might be of interest to you, from IA1.. page 216 IA-1...

Following the Saint-Saen Crusade, which liberated twelve worlds in the Segmentum Obscurus, the STC patterns for the Lightning were recovered on Karnak II by Adeptus Mechanicus exploration teams. The plans were immediately placed in the hands of the Adeptus Mechanicus lords of Cypra Mundi. These ancient lords then sat in judgement, took readings of the Emperor's tarot and the advice of their oldest and wisest technicians. The plans were cross referenced with the archives onf Mars before deciding that the omens were vaforurable, and they could begin work on the fighter with the Machine God's favour. It took over half a millenia of resarch, trials, testing and devotions to the Machine God before the first Lightning saw service with Battlefleet Obscurus. After initial problems with the swept wing design were corrected, the fighter was given approved status and went into full production, supplying the fleet carriers and cruisers.

Slowly, the STC technology has been disseminated to two other major Naval cenres at Bakka and Hydraphur, and Lightnings are now in service alongside the more common Thunderbolts in the fleets of Segmentum Tempestus and Segmentum Pacificus as well.

The fighter's main role is engaging enemy aircraft and establishing air superiority over the battlefield. Based on orbiting spaceships or on rapidly established forward air bases, squadrons of lightnings fly patrols, intercept missions, and supply fighter cover to Maurader bomber missions. Plummeting from orbit or scrambling from ground airfields, Lightnings ar given licence to engage targets of opportunity on the ground should they identify an enemy threat. Although this is not their primary function, the addition of up to four Hellstrike air to surface missiles make the lightning an effective ground attack aircraft.

The Lightning 'Srike' variant is actually the same aircraft as a Lightning, only with a different weapons fit. The ventral-mounted autocannon is removed to save weight, and missile racks added under the fuselage. Along with the wing hardpoints, this allows a Lightning Strike to carry up to six Hellstrike missiles.

This weapons fit is only used on Lightnings that are in a dedicated ground attack role, with the primary mission of targetting enemy armour. During a major offensive, Lightnings fly in close support of the Imperial Guard units on the ground. A 'taxi rank' of Lightning Strikes will circle the battlefield, awaiting requests from a frontline Imperial Guard commander in need of assistance. The Lightning will then swoop down toward the target, unleashing a barrage of missiles before climbing back to the rank.

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