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Steel Legion Experimental Changes List 1.0

 Post subject: Re: Steel Legion Experimental Changes List 1.0
PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 8:15 pm 
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My opinion is that the bombards are too bad rather than the Manticores beeing to good. I do on the other hand not rate artillery very highly for the points cost versues the extreme fragility.

The Bombards are very bad though and never see play except for fluff reasons. these changes, particulary 5+ armour is motivated. But maybe lower points or increased range would be better than changing the movement?

Baneblade changes mightwork but needs testing, making it faster feels a bit odd for a super heavy.

Other changes seem good, Artillery company probably still too expensive.


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 Post subject: Re: Steel Legion Experimental Changes List 1.0
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:44 am 
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By chaning the Speed to 15cm they can garrisson. Thats an huge benefit for them. You could take a platoon, flonk it down on one Objective with overwatch and wait. They gain flexibility, plus the Space Marines cant auto-spaceship your Blitz on first turn and be sure to hit your artillery.

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 Post subject: Re: Steel Legion Experimental Changes List 1.0
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:04 am 
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Several of these seem to be significant boosts to a list that I'm not sure needs boosts.
Emperor - 150pts auto activating giving 3 large templates - effectively allows IG to ignore an objective until turn 3
Bombard - OW garrisoned artillery
Hellhounds - Inspiring seems odd for them to begin with, adding them to mech inf or tanks will give them a +3 or +4 in assaults in not prepped.

Together you could follow a very defensive playstyle - OW infantry Companies with hellhounds buried out of LoS in cover, OW artillery then hit the blitz with the Emperor turn 3

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 Post subject: Re: Steel Legion Experimental Changes List 1.0
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:04 am 
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Overwatching artillery (including Fearless in the formation) was a problem for the Iron Warriors Daemonic Artillery formation. It resulted in the units going to 20cm movement to prevent the silly situation of Garrisoned, Overwatching, very effective artillery being able to hit the enemy deployment zone (which it couldn't do without Garrisoning). It also looks pretty silly to have your artillery out the front of the army! ;)

I played this situation over a dozen times and the change to 20cm movement was welcomed by opponents and list critics alike.

There is a big difference between attempts to address internal balance and creating a tournament ready list. I have to say that I agree with Steve54.

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 Post subject: Re: Steel Legion Experimental Changes List 1.0
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:10 pm 
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Looking good, will try and test some of the changes.
The Manticores really need some competition and now the bombards have a different use then "bad manticores) Not really concerned about the garrison but time will tell. (it is still 250 p for a 3 unit strong formation...)

What feels wrong is the Hellhounds "inspiriting". Why do they have it? Do we need another special rule? Do we need two inspiring units in a mech inf company... But I'm ok with testing it.

The other thing (that Steve54 already said) is; do this list need a boost, I do not think so, in that case it would be nice with something "negative" too.

The change on the Baneblade feels alright but it will be a "big" change that together with the Gorgon moves the boundaries for what a IG WE will be. The Baneblade is a typical superheavy that every other WE measures against so now there is no reason for "all" the variants to move up to 20 cm and perhaps some might be reasonable to remove crits on as well. This is powercreep... Not sure it will be that bad but just my first impression.

Could you please state all the changes in this list in the beginning so we don't miss anything. It would also be nice if you have a timetable. Do you intend to test this for a month or a year :)

Anyway a good initiative! :)


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 Post subject: Re: Steel Legion Experimental Changes List 1.0
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:49 pm 
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Commissar Holt wrote:
Baneblade 20 cm move, without crit, seems a better and cheaper russ company to me.


Agreed. That would totally kick the tank Co out of any list (even though LR Cos are already a rare sight).

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 Post subject: Re: Steel Legion Experimental Changes List 1.0
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:38 am 
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Thanks Matt. Im very happy with these changes. Everyone has their own ideas about what they would and wouldn't do so it's impossible to please everyone. I think your reasoning is sound. I would like to try these changes out and if I can will let you know how I get on. Btw I think another change is the warlord has come down 25 points but maybe that's an EpicUk difference.

100th post :)


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 Post subject: Re: Steel Legion Experimental Changes List 1.0
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:57 am 
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Rug,

Mate cheers for the proposed updates, whilst I rarely comment in the IG sub-forum I watch it closely behind the Space marines. Onto the changes.

Baneblade:
I think the change to 20cm is ok, as you pointed out in the baneblade discussion it was probably the simplest of the proposed changes to implement. 20cm is not too fast, its just faster than walking infantry and on par with the Leman Russ tanks so no real issue there. In fact, I'd like to see the same potentially on the storm hammer as it, and the baneblade, are essentially the MBTs of the SHT line. Whilst the others are tank hunters or assault guns laden with titan grade weaponry, so its makes sense for them to be a tad slower.

What troubles me though is the no critical = destroyed. This does not make sense to me, and I feel its a step too far away from the established precedent of most DC1-3 WE being killed outright on a critical.

Storm Trooper & Chimera:
Sound decision, matches with 40k options, and particularly useful since the flyers are somewhat hard to acquire nowadays.

Emperor to +1:
Doubt this will have much effect as space craft aren't taken that often unless its linked to a drop force. If the proposed change to slow & steady ever gets up (can come on from turn 2) then this may have a larger impact but as you point out above, a battle barge already has similar capability and it is by no means an auto include in tournament SM lists.

Bombards to 15cm move:
Interesting direction, and on reflection I like it. I would have thought the obvious decision might have been a range increase to 60cm, and that would have been supported to some degree by recent 40k/imperial armour rules and stats but I think this alteration just might open up some alternative play styles for the IG. Our East coast Australian meta sees a lot of RHQ + Tank Coy + SHT coy builds or similar mech focused combination of companies and support elements. Bombards are almost never taken, and neither is the infantry company on foot.

As an IG commander, garrisoning bombards will be useful for the effective range boost, but I don't see OW being particularly useful often. I want my arty on sustain fire. If someone is dumb enough to move a large infantry or mech/inf formation into LOS of a unsuppressed bombard detachment on turn 1, they deserve what they get. More likely, the units my opposition will send into LOS to rough them up are either teleporters, who are hard to deal with at the best of times, or some scout/screen force which isn't worth the firepower of what is likely to be one of my two or three arty elements.

However, to protect my bombards in their new forward position, I'm more likely to consider deploying them in support of my own scouts or potentially even protected by a dismounted infantry company with attached AA as a forward, cheap static firebase that needs to be dealt with if the enemy wants to operate in their own deployment zone safely.

I could ramble on but in short, I think it works. It may even open up the list design some, away from pure mech lists we regularly see. I also think the 5+ armour is also completely fine, given the bombard is often based on a leman russ hull anyway.

Hellhound:
I see what your trying to do, I think the wording of the "inspired" rule could be tidied up some to clearly indicate that they grant +1 regardless on the number of units with "inspired" in the formation. It may also help to name the rule something further away from "inspiring" to reduce the confusion, especially with those speaking/reading English as a second language. Perhaps "terror weapon" or something like that would work?

Tank Sqn to 150:
Again these are rarely seen, the change probably won't change the meta too significantly as IG players regularly seemed more concerned with activation boosting at 3k, rather than upgunning already solid company choices. In saying that, there are some advantages to attaching these to mech infantry companies both in firepower and positioned well, they can be used to soak up the first 3 hits of shooting or assault hits with 4+RA rather than a 5+ or no save.

Anyhow, hope this feedback is of use. Please reaconsider the baneblade critical removal, otherwise I think your ideas are generally sound and will hopefully see the dust blown off a few models in people's collections.

Cheers

*Edited for spelling & grammar


Last edited by ortron on Thu Aug 13, 2015 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Steel Legion Experimental Changes List 1.0
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 11:57 am 
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Cool changes Rug - it will be interesting to see what RichardL makes of them (or any other top players for that matter).


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