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Minervan Legion Updated

Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:04 pm

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Still can't see how 3 extra lascannon and 3 extra twin heavy bolter makes them radically different

It's superior to a Baneblade's ranged shooting, now has the same basic speed, and firefights on 3's ; With 10cm speed there was a tradeoff (More firepower, less speed) whilst now the Stormhammer is just better, a lot better.

I'm sorry Chris, this is one of those 'last minute changes that turns out to be too powerful', like Spirit Stones or giving an Extra Attack to Rough Riders.

If possible I suggest a downloadable Errata for Raiders in a month or two, which would fix both the Stormhammer and the Warp Beasts, as well as any other problems that are spotted.

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:57 pm

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I not disputing its too powerful

Just surprised you are finding it so powerful!

And yes I forgot about the FF3+ (an extra 1/2 a hit per tank).

My point was rather 10cm speed makes them sub par. I've sidestepped it with a different weapon load out based on the old model. What solutions are there assuming a model like JonLukes? Worse armour? Use the old model and say 2dc? What would you do, apart from make it 10cm.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:05 pm

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I reckon that 10cm is a fine balancing mechanic when using the Minervan stats, to be honest.

For other balancing methods, there are many, many options, which start with changing the weapon loadout.

The Minervan stats are 'modernised' stats, ie: What the Stormhammer would have it were produced today.

My point was rather 10cm speed makes them sub par.

It makes them balanced, rather than sub-par ; Just because they won't be claiming the Blitz goal, that doesn't mean they're any worse at being the single best short-range mixed AP/AT SHT, as well as being the best Firefighting SHT.

They are about average for an SHT at 10cm speed ; At 15cm speed, they are just too good, you'd have to do some serious revisions to the basic stats and by the time you're done you've no longer got a modernised Stormhammer, you've got something else entirely.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:26 pm

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Stormblade is more powerful than Baneblade. The main gun is more powerful MW2+ vs AP3+/AT3 shot per turn. You could argue that the shorter range balances it together with more guns on Baneblade. But it doesn't as both tanks have the most effective range at 30cm (against AV/WEs it's actually 45cm on Stormblade). Charads suggestion was to put FF5+ on this. Could possibly work.

Ingame we've found Stormblades to be fine on the whole, sitting somewhere between the Baneblade and the Shadowsword in power level.

I don't think I'd disagree to FF5+ for them.

The 35cm speed on Salamander is bit too much I think. It's now as fast as Valkyries and that's not right

.

They're meant to be considerably faster than Chimeras (As in 20-30% faster IIRC).

As ever, we're talking operational speeds rather than theoretical maximum speeds, so although a Vulture could travel very fast indeed, in practice it spends most of its time hovering, or moving at 50kph down a valley whilst trying to stay out of LOS of the enemy.

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:59 pm

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In what way would a 10cm move tank be better or equal to a baneblade? Unless the enemy is drop podding you you will get 1-1 1/2 rounds of fire. Your first turn will definitively be a march unless its the afor mentioned opponent. As for blitzing I doubt any sht will be doing that!

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:03 pm

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In what way would it (A 10cm move) be better?
- It forces more Double moves, and even the occasional Triple move.

That's it, really. The 15cm move Stormhammer can Double, move at the same speed as a Tripling 10cm Stormhammer, and then lay down a serious torrent of firepower.

It's simply too quick to have that many guns, I'm sorry but it's very overpowered with that 15cm move.

Yes, it was definitely my expectation that the Stormhammer's slow speed and short range would lead to the player Doubling or even Tripling on turn 1, just as I expected that the Stormblades wouldn't find a suitable target for their Plasma Blastguns until turn 2+ too.

I don't understand your insistance that the Stormhammer should be quick enough to be able to attack units deep in the enemy's board half on turn 1, that simply wasn't the concept for this version of the Stormhammer and it's much too powerful to allow it to do so.

- In what way would a 10cm move Stormhammer be the equal of a Baneblade?

Answer:

By being the best short-range mixed AP/AT SHT in the game, and by being the best Firefighting SHT in the game.

By changing its speed from 10cm to 15cm, you've simply made it into the best SHT in the game, with no qualifiers needed.

You can Double a 15cm Stormhammer, and project your 10 3+ Firefight Support attacks at 150% the range of a 10cm move Stormhammer.

It's just too quick.

Design concepts:

Shadowsword: Best Anti-Titan SHT
Baneblade: Best all-round SHT (Good at range, good close-in)
Stormblade: Best Anti-Heavy Amour SHT
Stormsword: Best Anti-Infantry SHT
Stormhammer: Best short-range SHT (As long as the target formation is mixed AP/AT). Extreme Firefight ability.

Don't forget that Minervan Commissars grant an extra FF attack too.

As for blitzing I doubt any sht will be doing that!
I saw three Stormhammers reach the Blitz in a game yesterday...

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Moscovian

Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated

Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:39 am

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I'd like to see more information (at least summary batreps) and other people's batreps before I make a judgment call. It is entirely possible that something is unbalanced but on first glance not overwhelmingly so. One set of games can vary so greatly compared to another in terms of dice, terrain, opponents, tactics, and battle opportunities. But I'll put the unit on a 'watch list' where I'll keep all the names and comments for the next 11 months.

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated

Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:47 pm

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Oh its definitively unbalanced Mosc, I'm just surprised at how unbalanced E&C finds it. Certainly it has a deterrent as well that should be factored in, but I doubt its the best one (simple pressures of Warhounds and similar means the Shadowsword is still the default option I feel for the ability it brings to the army)

I would prefer a fix though that didn't involve it becoming dead slow. Maybe the main guns being 30cm?

In what way would it (A 10cm move) be better?
- It forces more Double moves, and even the occasional Triple move.

I think you misread, I was basically asking how a 10cm SH could be the equal of a BB? The BB would have greater firepower turns 1 and two (battlecannon vs nothing, then turn two (advance vs double) 4 hits vs 3 hits (even better if target is in cover) with I feel the short range deterrence factor being countered by the BB's increased speed.

I saw three Stormhammers reach the Blitz in a game yesterday...

Unless you had a smaller than 4 foot table it means a 4 turn game and a minimum of two marches and two doubles (even marching for 3 turns would leave you out by a couple of cm), not exactly ideal for a 500 point formation and a surprise the enemy couldn't handle the rest of the army whilst it advanced!

Still if you think it would come to dominate being 10cm and a second rate choice would be better, though I would hope there are other ways round it.

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Moscovian

Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated

Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:55 pm

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Oh its definitively unbalanced Mosc, I'm just surprised at how unbalanced E&C finds it.

TRC, if you felt it was 'definitely' unbalanced why didn't you recommend changes prior to releasing the list? I am a little concerned about this statement since -as the IG Champ- I gave your unit stat changes heavy weight and as I recall I instituted all of them.

IMO if the unit is unbalanced compared to its brethren it is still better off than how unbalanced a Warp Spider is over any other Aspect Warrior. If that lack of balance can survive the Eldar changes then I think the Minervan list will survive the SHT disparity.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated

Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:24 pm

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@Chris
Unless you had a smaller than 4 foot table it means a 4 turn game

It was indeed a 4 turn game, with one Double (On a road), followed by two Advances, and one final Double ; An attached Leman Russ sat 5cm away from the lead Storm Hammer and claimed the blitz, which would have been impossible with a 10cm move Stormhammer.

I think you misread

I think you failed to read the entirety of my answer, specifically:

"- In what way would a 10cm move Stormhammer be the equal of a Baneblade?

Answer:
By being the best short-range mixed AP/AT SHT in the game, and by being the best Firefighting SHT in the game.

By changing its speed from 10cm to 15cm, you've simply made it into the best SHT in the game, with no qualifiers needed."

Still if you think it would come to dominate being 10cm and a second rate choice would be better, though I would hope there are other ways round it.

I honestly think it gives a unique feel to the tank, and won't be completely sub-par as you imagine.

@Moscovian
IMO if the unit is unbalanced compared to its brethren it is still better off than how unbalanced a Warp Spider is over any other Aspect Warrior. If that lack of balance can survive the Eldar changes then I think the Minervan list will survive the SHT disparity.

It's now better than a Shadowsword, IMHO*, and needs a serious downgrade ; I encourage others to playtest Stormhammers to help prove or disprove my hypothesis.

I gave your unit stat changes heavy weight and as I recall I instituted all of them.

I believe he did advocate +15cm range for the Stormsword's main gun (From 30cm to 45cm), which did not make it into Raiders.

For the record I agree with that buff, in principle as the Stormsword's always been slightly sub-par ; It's nothing like as important as the Stormhammer issue, as underpowered units can be ignored for the purposes of an urgent eratta, it's overpowered units that cause problems.

* As the Minervan army list does not lack for long-range AT weapons to fill in for the Shadowsword!

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Moscovian

Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated

Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:18 pm

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(Evil and Chaos @ Jun. 16 2008,09:24)

QUOTE

I gave your unit stat changes heavy weight and as I recall I instituted all of them.

I believe he did advocate +15cm range for the Stormsword's main gun (From 30cm to 45cm), which did not make it into Raiders.

For the record I agree with that buff, in principle as the Stormsword's always been slightly sub-par ; It's nothing like as important as the Stormhammer issue, as underpowered units can be ignored for the purposes of an urgent eratta, it's overpowered units that cause problems.

Actually, TRC didn't suggest that. This was the big email I got from TRC and the range increase was not one of them. I don't think I would have put it into play anyway but that isn't the point.

Commissars. Same name, different stats. Should have different name. No idea however what it could be. Something involving the word tank? Armoured regiment commissar?

Chimera. 'Chimeras may be armed differently within a single formation.' This is an army list note, not a unit datafax note. And technically its an IFV I believe (though L4 would be the expert there, I just watch films). Missing its pattern. Use the rulebook (Armageddon Pattern) Or Mars or what?

Salamander. Missing pattern. Anything you like (Mars being most common).

Salamander Command, love the description! Change 'Leman Russes' to 'tanks' and maybe not need the final one word line (though thats formating and not rules! It does seem to be in a few descriptions).

Exterminator. Want to make it Minervan (or the forgeworld name if you choose to use that)? Mars pattern are supposed to be 50% faster than regular russ (one of the reasons for removing the battlecannon).

Instead of Minervan pattern in general you could change to a nearby forgeworld? Make it up (hell, use the patron saint of tankers or soldiers in General, e.g. Zapopan, Barbara, Acacius, Nicomedia, Stanislaus (of), Cracow, lots of good stuff, I always try and use saints and stuff for my BFG/Epic names). Also pattern names go on the datafax, not the unit intro text (so for instance the stormhammer).

Minor point and not that useful at this stage, the basilisk picture is that of a Mars pattern (which has a 6+ save), not the better Amreggedon pattern (which is enclosed and has a proper 5+ save). Just leave as is if, which is highly likely you can't find a replacement pic. Better than changing to Mars at this stage. Same as the Baneblade (except you have the Mars stats correctly, just the wrong tank in the picture, thats the Stygies pattern?). And the Stormblade. These are very minor quibbles and have nothing to do with stats or compatibility with other guard lists!

Manticore. Arg, I hate 2nd ed models!

Actually this is a good paint job, maybe I should revisit mine.

Hydra. Arg, I forgot to use the heavy bolters when i played the Necrons on Tueday! (Nothing to do with the supplement, sorry!)

Stormhammer. Shouldn't be Mars pattern, they make proper Baneblades not knock-offs. Change pattern to the main minervan supporting forge world or to the planet itself (very unlikely a non forge world could make SHT's).

Stormhammer. I didn't get the test it (or the assault gun thingy) so its just a feeling, but I can't see a range 30cm speed 15 tank making the cut for the current price. So what? Leave it for the revised version after a year or so of play!

Do you want to use the proposed NetEA changes for Guard or not?
They are:
Vulture missiles become 90cm.
Demolisher sponson weapons lose slow fire and become AP5+/AT5+.
Deathstrikes lose 'no los required' and become indirect (in the missile notes, not the tanks).
You are using the revised Baneblade stats.

Commissars special rule. Make it clear that it is the Minervan Commissars, not the general ones (to stop people using both!)

Amphibious special rule. I would make if far simpler. All armoured vehicles in a Minervan regiment are Amphibious and treat Marshes as normal terrain and Rivers as Dangerous. Really I have played I think 3 games since epic came out that use those terrain types (and skimmers ignore them anyway).

Flak support. Should be 50 points each.

Warhounds. You don't want to make them 275 for one and 500 for two? Not as much an issue in Guard, but could be abused (just not as much as by marines!) I would go for 275 for 1 as they are a damn good unit and it stops 4 at 3000 point games.

Bombers. Going to 250 in the other Imperial lists as they are a bit poor currently.

I agree that people should play the Stormhammer along with everything else on the list.

Right now though I am not too worried. You obviously had a very successful run with them but it could be that good fortune conspired to put that formation in a victorious position. Time will tell.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated

Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:24 pm

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Actually, TRC didn't suggest that. This was the big email I got from TRC and the range increase was not one of them. I don't think I would have put it into play anyway but that isn't the point.

He's been suggesting it for... ever... for the Death Korps of Krieg version, it's even in his latest list of suggestions for it, I am surprised he didn't suggest it here, it was certainly a good suggestion.

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scarik

Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:45 pm

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Are E&C's posts completely blank to anyone but me?

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Moscovian

Post subject: Minervan Legion Updated

Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:56 pm

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Try highlighting the page by SELECT ALL and any hidden text should show. I can read it fine though.

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