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Tank Rider special rule
Soren
 Post subject: Tank Rider special rule
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 12:45 pm 
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Infantry tried to hide behind the vehicles to get cover. Riding only between engagements or in relative saftey as I remember the stories.

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J0k3r
 Post subject: Tank Rider special rule
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 12:53 pm 
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@soren: The point of the rule as i see it is to give the ability to the infantry, rather than having to insert transport into a whole series of AV data faxes and then define how transport may/may not be used.

I dont know how realistic it is in an engagement setting, but on an epic battlefield many of the manoeuvre's take place at the sorts of long distances where infantry may feel safe enough doing this.  PLus its cool, and thats what the 40k setting is all about :)

For example these rules would allow you to make a mixed scout platoon of salamanders and infantry quite easily (though I often wonder why on earth salamanders cant transport 5 infantry already?)

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Soren
 Post subject: Tank Rider special rule
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:38 pm 
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It may be cool, but it deserves no new rule. not in this scale level. If I want to use AV-riding infantry I will say: Every two armored vehicle (exept such with transport capacity already in the notes) can transport one infantry stand. this would suffice in all game terms, easy to use and a rule everybody understands. No need for modifying notes.
What do you think about this idea?

edit: hell, now it got a new rule by myself.  ???   :blush:




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tank Rider special rule
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:42 pm 
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I'd do it one a 1-to-1 basis (Perhaps 1 per DC in the case of war engines) to avoid confusion.

Infantry would be placed touching the tank they're riding, and count as being in cover (-1 to hit) whilst Tank Riding.

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Soren
 Post subject: Tank Rider special rule
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:44 pm 
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A half stand per DC at max. Like autocannons. there is simply not the right room to transport 10 Guardsman plus heavy weapon plus equipment on top of a Leman Russ, even if it is cool :D

and dividing by two...I trust every EPIC Player to be somehow familiar with math...and including the generosity rule from JJ we should have no problem with rounding




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Chroma
 Post subject: Tank Rider special rule
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:49 pm 
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(Soren @ May 08 2008,13:44)
QUOTE
A half stand per DC at max. Like autocannons. there is simply not the right room to transport 10 Guardsman plus heavy weapon plus equipment on top of a Leman Russ, even if it is cool :D

A stand is *5* Guardsmen... so it's five guys riding on a tank, not ten...   :)

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Soren
 Post subject: Tank Rider special rule
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 1:53 pm 
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oh i forgot, thanks :). I?m to impaled in my newly aquired 40k squad. You are completely right. 1 stand per vehicle would suffice

*shame on me*

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Tank Rider special rule
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:02 pm 
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Some comments later but here is some info

Good old wikipedia

An excellent book

Random stuff.
Dec 41 SMG (Tankodesantniki) Co: SMG Plt (3 Sqd) x3. These are the tank-rider guys. They had a smaller Sqd (8 men), Plt (25 men), and HQ Sec (4 men) for a total of 79 men in the company, and were armed exclusively with SMGs.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Tank Rider special rule
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 3:01 pm 
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After some thinking about it I really see those troops being subject to AP fire. ?Even an open topped vehicle provides more cover than riding on the top of a tank. ?If you ask any soldier I am sure he'd rather ride in something rather than on something. ?I know I would. ?

The cover issue is two fold. ?Infantry who are moving slowly along the side of a tank can easily take cover as the rules already deal with. ?But transporting infantry as they move faster than their normal movement base requires them to 'mount up', and dangle themselves from the armored vehicles. ?Enemy fire can easily be directed at the infantry and should be allowed (while at a -1 cover modifier of course, or other type of cover save). ?

Another thought about this is Chimeras are AVs, so there is nothing preventing them from transporting a third unit on the outside of those vehicles. ?If the infantry outside are not subject to enemy fire, then there is no real benefit to riding inside, and that strikes me as counter-intuitive.

EDIT - this quote from wikipedia made up my mind.

Riding on tanks during actual combat is very dangerous; soldiers are very vulnerable to machine gun and high explosive fire, and the high silhouette of most tanks would draw enemy fire. Smoke and covering fire may be used to reduce the hazards, but this tactic is mostly used by forces with a shortage of motor transport or armoured personnel carriers, as it enables troops to move about the battlefield faster than on foot.


Underlines added.




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Soren
 Post subject: Tank Rider special rule
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 3:21 pm 
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Ork vehicles still use the same rule.

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Tank Rider special rule
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 3:31 pm 
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From Epic: Armageddon.
Using their battlewagonz as mobile bunkers, the Orks used their mobility to great effect in keeping the Imperial defenders at Volcanus hemmed in whilst heavy siege artillery was brought up.
Read that: inside, not outside. ?I don't see the similarity of Ork tanks which are designed (albeit crudely) to carry infantry, to infantry riding on the outside of tanks which are outfitted with handles and netting. ?Even with an open top, infantry can duck behind something for cover. ?When you are riding on the outside of a tank YOU are the cover for the tank. ?It's a freakin' meat-shield. :p

EDIT: Is it my imagination or has this thread been MOD'd and had portions of it removed?




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Tank Rider special rule
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 3:45 pm 
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EDIT: Is it my imagination or has this thread been MOD'd and had portions of it removed?


I don't notice anything missing.

Are you thinking of posts in this thread perhaps?

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Chroma
 Post subject: Tank Rider special rule
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 3:47 pm 
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I would say that the "tank-riders" should be subject to normal AP targetting, getting the -1 to be hit for cover and a 6+ "transport" cover save.

The primary benefit is mobility for infantry travelling with armour, not removing them from the board for targetting purposes.

I do like the idea.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Tank Rider special rule
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:40 am 
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I first came across this rule when playing AH's Panzer Blitz, and it is historically accurate for most armies of WWII, Korea, etc. ... And we did it when I was on active duty, as I said.  Codex Titanicus also gave this rule to the Orks. But keeping it simple is my suggestion. And Infantry caught on the outside of a vehicle are meat on the table, no cover benefit should be awarded ...  Mounting and dismounting should just like with any other vehicle, as I said. It gives your infantry more mobility then on foot. But they should dismount quickly behind cover, close to your OBJ ...

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