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Vultures?
1. No change. 27%  27%  [ 10 ]
2. Range reduction (90cm). 30%  30%  [ 11 ]
3. AT reduction (AT3). 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
4. Range and AT reduction (AT3 and 90cm). 41%  41%  [ 15 ]
Total votes : 37

Vultures?
Edgar-San
 Post subject: Vultures?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:06 pm 
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I agree with the range reduction, but like most of you I think it should be much lower than 90. Probably 60, maybe even 45
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thurse
 Post subject: Vultures?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:24 pm 
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I voted for both.
going to 3+ would make sustained fire actions worthwhile and make the vultures a bit harder to use. And as Flogus said, they are still worth their prices.

On the other hand, I like Hena's idea of an important range reduction...

Finally, in a GT game the one shot stuff is not so bad as it seems... It's rare to be able to shoot efficiently every turn with each formation.
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Flogus
 Post subject: Vultures?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:02 pm 
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I play them AT3+ 90cm and Vultures still worth their cost, but they are no longer a 'no brainer' formation.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Vultures?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:27 am 
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Hmm, it seems as though perhaps a choice between:

60cm AT2+  
OR
90cm AT3+

might be useful to evaluate.

Hena and any others, I'm thinking 45cm is a probably just too extreme and that a more conservative aproach here would be wiser. Thoughts?

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Ginger
 Post subject: Vultures?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 3:19 am 
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Though extreme, I would try testing 45 cm with AT3+ and 60cm with AT2+, to see if they are viable. As others have said, with scout, they can (and possibly should) be deployed forwards of the army in cover / on OW ready to pop out at oncoming armour, and 45cms on top of their 30 cm move gives them an effective range of 75cm or 2.5 feet. Garrisoned 30 cms in from the edge, this reaches the opposing deployment zone and covers most of the 6' x 4' table

The short ranges will make them more challenging to use effectively, and will depend greatly on the extent of the terrain used. If this is found to be too harsh, then 60cms AT3, 75cms AT2 will almsot certainly be Ok.

Because of garrison, I believe 90cm will prove too long - it effectively gives sustained fire into the opposing deployment zone and thus an autokill - which is little different from the current state that people object to.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Vultures?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:08 am 
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On a sidenote look at this thread (expecially post number 1 and 12): http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....;t=9981




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Markconz
 Post subject: Vultures?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:29 am 
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(Hena @ Sep. 08 2007,05:43)
QUOTE
Marconz. I'm not sure. 60cm vs 90cm might not be enough. I would probably try to test it with 45 first and see if it works. If not, then up to 60,

Ok, but surely 60cm for playtesting then considering revision later if still thought to be overpowered would be better in this case? I mean 60cm is already cutting the range in half  :O - that's  pretty extreme... it's just a one shot weapon after all.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Vultures?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 12:51 pm 
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(Markconz @ Sep. 08 2007,07:29)
QUOTE
it's just a one shot weapon after all.

Well, in the formation it's *eight* AT2+ one-shot weapons... plus the Vulture's other guns...

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Honda
 Post subject: Vultures?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 12:57 pm 
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Of course the Vulture is a comparatively new unit to Epic, so it will have taken longer for them to get into more widespread circulation and use than other units, and consequently for people to form opinions.


I'm confused as to why this statement has been made. Vultures have been in the IG since way back.

I don't think they need any revising down. They are a one shot wonder and then the rest of the game, they have to be very careful because they are fragile and can be jumped on by other skimmers.

One of the things I might as of you is how much terrain you are using on your tables? Maybe they seem super effective because terrain is sparse and they can see everything. Dunno, but I'd be interested in hearing more on that.

Now, that is not to say that I think they are a wimpy unit. They aren't. They work very well with the rest of the IG list. But once you've been on the butt end of a Vulture Alpha Strike, you don't need to be reminded of that lesson again. It makes a huge impression, but the impression carries more weight than follow on experiences.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Vultures?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:28 pm 
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(Honda @ Sep. 08 2007,11:57)
QUOTE
Of course the Vulture is a comparatively new unit to Epic, so it will have taken longer for them to get into more widespread circulation and use than other units, and consequently for people to form opinions.


I'm confused as to why this statement has been made. Vultures have been in the IG since way back.

Existing IG epic armies were playtesting EA since since Epic Magazine 10 in 2002, and in previous epic editions before that.

Vulture models and that style of Imperial guard unit did not arrive until years later.

One of the things I might as of you is how much terrain you are using on your tables? Maybe they seem super effective because terrain is sparse and they can see everything. Dunno, but I'd be interested in hearing more on that.

From what I've seen most battle reports are using tournament standard terrain setups.

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Mark_Logue
 Post subject: Vultures?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:37 pm 
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I am all for a reduction in range but definitely don't think they should drop to AT3+ as well.  The current version does allow them to be used without that much thought to cause quite a lot of damage that without cover along the enemy line means you can pretty much get at anything without much chance at all of anyone being able to stop you.  A range reduction means that the enemy should be able to target the Vultures before they can just blast off the missiles, once they have come under fire the effectiveness of their missile strikes is greatly reduced.

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Soren
 Post subject: Vultures?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 3:52 pm 
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If they loose 1 Vulture, only 1 Vulture can shoot anyway. There is no effectiveness if they are targeted, because then the unit it out of the battle for at least this turn.

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Cosmic Serpent
 Post subject: Vultures?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:13 am 
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It's always easier to reduce something, it's usually a hell of a battle to get it increased - with that said, I'd reduce it to 90, maybe 75 - but don't halve it right off the bat.  

I'm with Honda on this - Vultures have been around for a very long time, and although they can create one turn of serious pain for an enemy armor formation, it's only a single turn.  These type vehicles are designed to be tank hunters.  Look at a modern day Cobra or Apache - armored formations rightfully fear them for a reason, they bring death from far away - and usually aren't even seen by their targets until they've been hit.  

Like em or not, they fill a role and do it well - is that a reason to reduce their effectiveness?  Now if you had an all infantry force, would you fear them as much?
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