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Elysian Drop Troop

 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:33 pm 
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@Moscovian

Thanx for spotting those "Oops". CS has been helping me convert the raw file to a pdf and I haven't been proofing.

I'll get on it. Thanx!

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:41 am 
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I have started mucking around playtesting Elysians. ?I have only had one game so far so I will just post a few examples of things that happened (game was 3000 pts vs eldar).

Off the top of my head I used reg HQ with transports
Elysians with transports
2xstorm troopers
2xvultures
2x sentinals one MM one missiles

Firstly I placed both objectives on my opponents table edge towards the rear of the table and kept them all as close as possible to the objective on the opponents table edge.

With the scout special rule on the valkyres my plan was to try and claim all three objectives with one unit with 20cm between each one and needing to be within 15cm of an objective they can claim objectives 110cm apart in optimal circumstances which means you can place all three so that you can grab them with one unit.

Deep striking units with Valkyres can destroy their target units. ?On second turn I deep striked a heap of units around a Large tooled up Guardian warhost, assaulted it with the unit away from the wraithlords and completely destroyed it.

I had set up a couple of loose loose situations on this turn by picking all the least supported units.

I had tried to split the army up a bit by putting a big wall of garisoned sentinals in the way to hamper and channel there first turn movement. ?Trying to set things up for isolation so that the eldar would have as many units in trouble as possible at the start of the second turn so they couldn't deal with all the threats if they got the initiative.

I ended up winning on claiming two objectives with a valkyre formation, taking out the most expensive unit (guardians) and killing or breaking everything on my side of the table.

After expending all my special ammunition and taking a hammering to some of the units they wouldn't have been in a very strong possition if the game had continued. ?I found them quite fragile in turn three suffering heaps of casualties.





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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 3:07 pm 
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Deep striking units with Valkyres can destroy their target units.  


@ML,

Can you describe a little more what you mean by 'deep striking"?

Do you mean "teleporting" the infantry units in and following up with Valkyries or something else?

The reason I ask is that you are not able to "teleport" infantry that have transport.

Thanx!

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 3:47 pm 
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IIRC a single formation can claim only one objective at a time... so you couldn't claim all three with one formation.

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 4:01 pm 
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The only restriction on claiming/contesting objectives is being within 15cm.  One formation can capture all the objectives it fulfills the requirement for.

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 4:07 pm 
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Thus large formations like Ork Warbands that make it to the general area on the opposite side of the table can be a real thorn in an opposing players side.

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 5:18 pm 
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(nealhunt @ May 25 2007,16:01)
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The only restriction on claiming/contesting objectives is being within 15cm.  One formation can capture all the objectives it fulfills the requirement for.

Really?

I wonder where I read the 'can contest as many as you like but only claim 1 at any one time' verbage...

Different game, probably. :D

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 6:24 pm 
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Back to the question being asked.

The method of assaulting being questioned is bringing an infantry company on inside its Valkyries from off table via Teleport/Planetfall and then unloading the infantry (at the end of the 'first' move) and then assaulting an objective - basically an air assault that is more directly supported by what got the unit to the assault - the Valkyries.  
This is how I could see the description happening that is quoted.  The problem is that there are not rules for the Valkyries to Teleport/Planetfall.

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 6:04 am 
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Ok I completely miss read the rules (using Elysian list v2.1.2) thinking that Elysian Units still got teleport when they had Valkyres (imagining them flying in from high up somewhere).

Tried out another game now that I have that worked out.

Reg HQ with Valkyres
Drop Troops with Valkyres
Storm Troopers with Valkyres
Storm Troopers with Valkyres
Vultures
Vultures
Drop Sentinals
Support Sentinals
Destroyers
Lightnings

vs SW Eldar with

3x Jet bikes
2x Aspect Warhosts
1x Guardian Warhost
1x Warlock Titan
1x Pheonix bombers

1st turn I got the Warlock down to 1 DC by offloading both units of Vultures onto it.

I bombed one unit of Jetbikes (6x Vipers) off the table.

Took out a phoenix bomber with the lightnings intercepting.

Unfortunately Kim had clumped her infantry units together as she didn't realize what sort of weaponry the Valkyres pack so I moved all of my Valkyre units up to put barrages across multiple units with each one.

The army can pack a massive amount of firepower with all the one shot weapons so I think it can get devastating victories if people don't know how to play against them.  I gave her more of a run through off the list and strategies to prevent the sort of damage I achieved last game.  We will give the list another shot tonight and write up a battle report for it.  I think that spreading out and putting blast markers on to Valkyre units to decrease their capacity for devastation with their barrage weapons would lead to a very different game.

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 10:18 am 
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(Mark_Logue @ May 26 2007,14:04)
QUOTE
Ok I completely miss read the rules (using Elysian list v2.1.2) thinking that Elysian Units still got teleport when they had Valkyres (imagining them flying in from high up somewhere).

Tried out another game now that I have that worked out.

Reg HQ with Valkyres
Drop Troops with Valkyres
Storm Troopers with Valkyres
Storm Troopers with Valkyres
Vultures
Vultures
Drop Sentinals
Support Sentinals
Destroyers
Lightnings

vs SW Eldar with

3x Jet bikes
2x Aspect Warhosts
1x Guardian Warhost
1x Warlock Titan
1x Pheonix bombers

1st turn I got the Warlock down to 1 DC by offloading both units of Vultures onto it.

I bombed one unit of Jetbikes (6x Vipers) off the table.

Took out a phoenix bomber with the lightnings intercepting.

Unfortunately Kim had clumped her infantry units together as she didn't realize what sort of weaponry the Valkyres pack so I moved all of my Valkyre units up to put barrages across multiple units with each one.

The army can pack a massive amount of firepower with all the one shot weapons so I think it can get devastating victories if people don't know how to play against them. ?I gave her more of a run through off the list and strategies to prevent the sort of damage I achieved last game. ?We will give the list another shot tonight and write up a battle report for it. ?I think that spreading out and putting blast markers on to Valkyre units to decrease their capacity for devastation with their barrage weapons would lead to a very different game.

Mark was down in Perth and I played against the experimental rules with my eldar.

Yeah put it bluntly currently I'm not impressed by the list.

End of turn 1 there was really no point to keep going and we gave up. With four squadrons of Valks, Mark was able to break all of my infantry formations bar one which on a flank along with my tank support and knocking down a warlock titan to one damage point and no holofields. I think I destroyed 1 squadron of vultures in return. The firepower these formations you've designed is like giving a storm trooper platoon/company the backup of a artillery company (with disrupt i might add), with the move of a bike squadron. True they are weak and will fall out of the sky when you look at them, but no army except other guard and some purposefully designed lists could have any hope of taking them out before they double and fire into your own deployment zone with their nasty barrage weapons. Add in the sentinals that provide a 'zone of control' wall after a march move and armies like marines and eldar won't be able to actively go after the drop troops and allow the elysian player to pick and choose his targets freely. These vulture and valk formations are great if taken as a support option like in the regular guard list but if you make them the standard 'company' choice and for their current points cost it won't be a fun army to play against or with.

Oh and by the way we were playing a 6000 pt game. 6000 Eldar vs 3000 pts of IG & 3000 pts of Elysians. The other IG force did almost nothing, it was the 3000 pts of elysians that broke virtually the entire eldar army in turn 1 before some of them even had left their base line.

Mark then played 3000 vs 3000 against the IG army. The IG faired better, able to soak up the hits with a warlord and big guard companies but it was still devastating and gave no hope in hell (in my opinion) of claiming objectives and essentially playing a game of epic. The biggest guard infantry company still broke eventually along with pretty much everything else except the one warlord and maybe one super heavy. This drop troop list would butcher small formationa rmies like eldar and marines. Marines even though they need double BM's to break would still easily break with this ammount of close range firepower bearing down on them.

Summing up I think it should be back to the drawing board for the entire list and it should play differently from the start. We brainstormed some ideas about other options to keep the drop troop guard theme but make it challenging and enjoyable for both the guard player and his opponent.

- Storm troopers and Elysian infantry / sentinals can planetfall from turn one. No need to buy a space ship. Use the planet fall rules to deploy around the table, these guard companys desperately holding onto objectives while their valks and vultures provide support. Note: Valks are not apart of these infantry formations to begin with, it is assumed the elysians are dropped off by the transports and the skimmers leave there after. Think Vietnam films like 'We were Soldiers' air cav and the helicopter, the heli's didn't stay around while the battle was raging below.
- Valks and Vultures return to more support roles like they were designed for and in formations of four, provide support to the troops on the ground. They still have their nasty weapons of course but not in such great numbers and BP's as before. They are also valuable and vunrable to the guard player providing the challenge.

My four cents.  :D  Sorry it wasn't with positive news.

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:45 pm 
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Wow. ?:O I am shocked at how effective the Elysians are.  At quick glance the planetfall idea sounds pretty good, although the Elysians will fare better in the area of Blast Markers (none for planetfalling compared to teleporting).

I know the idea of making up a new game mechanic is usually met with disdain, but perhaps a similar mechanic that takes place after troop placement and teleporting is needed (to mimic being able to see troops grav chuting in, taking pop shots, etc).





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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:08 pm 
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Rgt HQ and all the "E" Troops, should come in on Valks and/or Grav-chutes (teleport). But once on the ground they will only move as fast as they can walk/run. And CAS is a must, IMO.  And yes, once the troops are on the ground the Valks would go back for more, like in the Air Cav/Air Assault.  BUT ... IMO in Epic, since Valks are more heavily armed then UH1s or UH60s, more like a Hind-D, they could stay on board and go behind cover and do "Pop-up" attacks along with the Vults. Like RW Gunships do ... That's the way we use T/Hawks. And after being a Plt Ldr and Air Ops Off in the 101. I'd say that all makes sense. And I recommend a mortar plt in the TO&E/list if it isn't already. In the RW that's the way it is and the fire support is useful. :D

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:43 am 
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Well in essence it would be a gt specific special rule.

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 6:23 am 
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(Legion 4 @ Jun. 06 2007,23:08)
QUOTE
Rgt HQ and all the "E" Troops, should come in on Valks and/or Grav-chutes (teleport). But once on the ground they will only move as fast as they can walk/run. And CAS is a must, IMO. ?And yes, once the troops are on the ground the Valks would go back for more, like in the Air Cav/Air Assault. ?BUT ... IMO in Epic, since Valks are more heavily armed then UH1s or UH60s, more like a Hind-D, they could stay on board and go behind cover and do "Pop-up" attacks along with the Vults. Like RW Gunships do ... That's the way we use T/Hawks. And after being a Plt Ldr and Air Ops Off in the 101. I'd say that all makes sense. And I recommend a mortar plt in the TO&E/list if it isn't already. In the RW that's the way it is and the fire support is useful. :D

I said planetfall before to try and avoid the BM's possible on the teleport. That would be far to cruel for guard and give them no hope.

Crazy idea way out in left field.
They do have the teleport rule when coming onto the board, however they do not have to roll for BMs, unless they teleport within say 30 cm or 45 cm of an enemy formation they test for BM. This allows you to represent the firing on troops as they come down or are delivered onto the battlefield. I really can't see a reason why experienced air drop troops would take BM's on a quiet part of the battlefield. They're not truly teleporting like a terminator formation would.

I agree the Vultures and Valks have to stay but should be small vunrable formations (4 strong IMO) that provide fire support and the possibility of causing crossfire etc. I'm sure Legion would agree that helicopters are vunrable if they hang around above a battlefield in range of enemy fire. Sentinals could also stay they way they are because that defensive screen now gives the elysian troops some protection and light support.

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 Post subject: Elysian Drop Troop
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:20 pm 
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I really can't see a reason why experienced air drop troops would take BM's on a quiet part of the battlefield.


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