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Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development

 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 2:04 pm 
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McJakub wrote:
jimmyzimms wrote:
The maurader hull is an AC not a WE in almost every list but DKoK and even that one will probably fall. There's nothing to change because Maurader!=Heavy Maurader

I thoight they would be having different stats but no, they are exactly the same. Cadains also use Marauder colossus afaik.

aye because it was the same dev. It's also an abandoned list and was never approved therefore we're not beholden to anything in it.

Deb wrote:
Cool, then I can change that one and have them taken as standard bombers but as a pair of them for more fire power. At a decently approriate price for the squadron.

bog standard bomber stats are

Marauder Bomber AC/Bomber 4+ n/a n/a
Twin Lascannon 45cm AT4+/AA4+FxF
Bomb Racks 15cm 3BPFxF
2× Twin Heavy Bolter 15cm AA5+

if you switch to other variants, such as the destroyer, there's defacto approved stats you should leverage instead (as in multiple dev lists that used it the same way for ~10+ years now so just go with it)

Deb wrote:
Lists like the Steel Legion ... have too many core formations, and the amount of upgrade options, even if limited to only 3 per core formation, can make the list somewhat confusing. They have a decent amount of support options, as the number of these is limited by the number of core formations.

Never heard anyone say that about SL ever. It's probably the best balanced and useable list in the game and what's overwhelmingly recommended for new players. citations pleaz or else it gets the hose again ;)

What SL does in design though doesn't have much baring on this list however

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:47 am 
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Sorry jimmyzimms I meant to type the word "to" in there. To say change that one to a standard bombers - meaning the standard bomber, rather than a WE bomber.

I always thought lists that had too many core options made it harder to design the list, and helps with the basic tactical theme for the army. A standard group of core formations generally keeps the army easy to design, and the support formations are then added to fulfill the specific detailed tactics you want to use. If possible I always like to include redundancy to my army lists.

Plus having many options for support fomations helps with this and also may reduce the list of weakneses your army might have.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:23 pm 
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Here is a conumdrum for I am having problems resolving. I have increased the size of the companies, and formations like sentinels and venators.

The old Elysian ver 3 list and The Harkoni Warhawks list Valkyries valued at about 25 points each, vultures and Vendettas valued at 75 points each with punishers + 100 points each . Sky Talons for 75 points for 2.

The Miralli Sky Raiders has Vendettas at 25 points more than Vendettas. They have a unit called the Vendetta Slick which is just a Valkyrie with a Heavy Bolter (missing the Rockets) 4 for 125 points around 30 something points each. Valkyries are priced as part of a formation making it hard to calculate their price per unit.

Catachan mobile force list again has valkyries included as part of a formation making it hard to calculate their cost. Vultures at 75 points, vulture puinishers at 50 points, and Sky Talons are mixed as part of a formation so their cost needs to be calculated.

I have tried to work out the cost for the increased formatoin sizes, and it will make the cost of the core formations really expensive, and in some cases I can not get the cost for individual units to be multiples of 25 points each.

The standard drop company commander 11 troopers with 6 valkyries works out to be 425 points.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:19 pm 
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Well, on the Valkyrie front if it's not an approved list, I wouldn't use it for reference. I think if I recall, we based the Valkyrie points at 25 a piece based on approved list costs of Valkyries. I want to say the source was storm troopers being able to talk Valkyries as the source point (I honestly can't remember, as it was 10-15 years ago). BUT, I think that should be the basis - storm troopers have been approved support formations from the beginning. It looks like as of the latest list, 8 stormtroopers get four Valkyries for 150 points. So with that in mind, six Valkyries should be costing us 225 points.

Trying to look at anything but this canonical data on storm troopers just makes things more confusing and harder to figure out IMHO.

I've never heard anyone complain about the SL list on any front (I consider it the defacto standard IG list, as do many others). It's designed to be highly flexible and build whatever force you want for guard. I definitely don't feel we have too many core options, if anything we are at the bare minimum.

I also don't and never did feel we had an issue around too many activations. Even with the v3 list. The list is supposed to hit hard and fast, then has to hope to hold out. One of your statements seemed to reflect it doing exactly this in a test battle, but an opponent complained so we made changes.... The strength of this list is to hit hard and fast in one, maybe two concentrated areas. The v3 list with Valkyries reinforced this, you could swoop in, try to get some large rocket pod barrages in, land the troops, then its a bit of hope and pray you did enough damage to weaken the enemy enough to not steam role you. You had no material artillery support in the way a traditional guard army did, and even the initial barrage was not as bad as say a Manticore company can lay out (and do so multiple times in the game). The weakness comes in the form of not being greatly equipped to hold said areas for long, and relying on relief forces to come to their aid. But this is exactly how the real world WWII or Vietnam counterparts were, so they seem to be operating as intended.

I'm not sure I would ever really see this army as being a good "all comers" tournament army, SL or others fit the bill much better. The weakness really starts to stack up when opponents role you with Titans and such, having very little that can do material damage. But again, aligns with the background - you wouldn't want to use an air cavalry force against something like that, you'd want a SL force with Super Heavy tanks or something else to intercept that type of force on the battlefield. Our best option was always the multi melta armed sentinel with MW5+ for that sort of thing, beyond that, the list is kind of up the creek....making it hard to be a real good all comers type of list.


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:05 am 
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Yeah, I do not see this list as a take on all comers list. Weak againdt titans, enemy that have longer ranged, faster forces, enemy with a good ampount of artillery, and the troops to protect it. Other armies with a form of planet assault, backed up by teleport, tanks, mechanised troops, and armour saves (space marines - Eldar), enemy that have a lot of fearless troops and other units - some nasty ranged weaponry, and the ability to move across the board to support other formations as required (Necrons with monolith warp gates) + they have troops that come back from the grave.

As to the Valkyries, I think 25 points each, Vultures 75 points each, Vendettas 50 poiints each, Vulture Punisher 50 points each, Sky Talons 25 points each.

I think the core formatoins like the Regimental HQ Company, the Drop Company and the Drop Mortar Company are a good core. Adding the option for the the Valkyrie/Vendetta Transports covers the Air/Cav element that was lost in my recent changes. The special weapons platoon helps with the anti-tank/WE problem a little.

I think that will do for a possible version 4.3.2 of the list.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:12 pm 
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what's the likely hood of slimming down more and just having regimental HQ and a drop company as cores? I think mentioned this earlier but mortars would fit excellently as a upgrade rather than a whole sperate company. Other than that this is sounding good to me, would love to see what you came up with deb!

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:58 pm 
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What would be the rationale for slimming down the core choices (just curious as to me we already have very few)?

I personally think having a support company as an option as core is good, and it's already limited in terms of how many can be taken (1 per 3k). It's almost a compulsory add IMHO when building the list.

If it were an upgrade, I'd probably take it in every core choice I think, so I like the diversity of having one formation with mortar support, the others don't (have to rely on the special weapons upgrade only).


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:51 am 
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Not sure how much reading this thread gets...but I thought I'd post this here as it's most relevant.

https://www.facebook.com/search/top?q=w ... miniatures

Chris is doing some fabulous work on Elysian Drop troop models so we'll have some actual drop troop minis play the list. I've asked him if he plans to cover Elysian's with missile launchers and mortar teams (both yes), so there's a good chance we'll have most of the force covered!

I have no vested interest financially, but I believe we should be supporting people like Chris as he and others are what is going to cause the game to actually grow for the foreseeable future. If you could, I'm sure he'd appreciate the support of his Patreon, or at least buy the minis when he's done!

He's got some other great stuff out there, definitely worth a look if you are 3D printing capable!


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:51 am 
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Funny as we've had drop troop minis from Vanguard for ages. They cover this, warhawks, and vanhiem lists in their options already.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:06 am 
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Yep, I'm just personally not a huge fan of their stuff (not trying to knock it, just doesn't suit my desires). My personal opinion is these will be a better end product, to each his own to decide what works best for them though!


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:58 am 
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I love Vanguard minis, in fact most of my army is made up of them. The only formation I had to modify to add was the Grey Ghosts, and that just involved green stuff and some camo painting.

I agree with jimmyzimms as to the Mortar company. If the Mortars are added to the core formations as an upgrade, you will not be able to fit all the upgrades you want in a formation, and the force will full of mortar teams that are suppressed because the enemy have added too many blast markers. The current company can sit back and shhot indirectly and be a dedicated area denial, drop in and then rush to the Blitz, etc, and then create an area of denial, or provide support for other formatoins preparing to assault.

I based them on the general make-up of traditional drop and infantry batallions/regiments which have separate mortar platoons/companies Normally 1 for every 3 - 5 infantry companies/batallions. It seemed logical, and does not make the list overly complicated. It also helps define the role each company is dedicated to. Assault - Fire support & objective holding, artillery support, etc.

I do not want prospective players getting lost in the army list, asking questinos on which upgrades are better, and then making a bland list. I want them to think of their planned tactics for example What would I need - 1 command company, 1 mortar company, 2 drop companies for assault, 1 drop company to hold blitz once taken and support the initial assault, space ship, some sentinels, grey ghosts, 1 storm troopers (teleport ot valkyries) maybe , taurus /Venators, Special weapon Platoon, lightnings, and a bomber squadron - do I need some rapid redeployment formations - maybe valkyries, oh and I must have atleast 1 vulture squadron - done.

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 12:17 pm 
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Cosmic Serpent wrote:
Yep, I'm just personally not a huge fan of their stuff (not trying to knock it, just doesn't suit my desires). My personal opinion is these will be a better end product, to each his own to decide what works best for them though!


Oh i love me some of Chris' work as well-got more than a few penal troopers myself. Just it's funny that from your original post implying that there wasn't anything being offered that fits the archetype (not that you actually need any specific models for playing this army-any guard troopers will get the job done). :)

Deb wrote:
I agree with jimmyzimms as to the Mortar company. If the Mortars are added to the core formations as an upgrade, you will not be able to fit all the upgrades you want in a formation, and the force will full of mortar teams that are suppressed because the enemy have added too many blast markers. The current company can sit back and shhot indirectly and be a dedicated area denial, drop in and then rush to the Blitz, etc, and then create an area of denial, or provide support for other formatoins preparing to assault.


yeah I don't see much issue with the mortar company myself as a concept. can we adjust and rejigger as needed for play? sure. But I don't think it needs to go the way of the dodo

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:08 am 
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Hopefully the latest version 4.3.2 is where it needs to be.

I have tried to make it balanced, without too many upgrade options, enough support choices to make it a variable list that you cna tailor make to oyur needs. I have tried to make the list loose a lot of its weaknesses, without loosing too many. I have tried to keep it to the theme it was supposed to represent, and also be able to be used in tournaments without people being overwhelmed too much by all-comers.

I have hopefully resolved some of the problems: too many short ranged weapons, smaller formations, insertion technique, no artillery template weapons except for spaceship, no droppable ground based AA, balanced price for formations and their abilities.

The list still has a few weaknesses: most infantry have no armour save, only every 2nd unit gets the special weapon for most formations, No inbuilt heavy armour (exceprt for expensive allied formation), no TK weapons (except for spaceship), all MW are 15cm or less, expensive transports for the those upgraded to air-cav, slow speed for the remainder of infantry once planetfall deployed, the bulk of the support vehicles are Light vehicles, no fearless (except Commissar).

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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:22 pm 
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This stuff will always be a WIP, I mean it has been for 15+ years I've been messing with it (although its very on and off for me, hopefully Epic is going to see a resurgence in players with all the 3D modeling happening these days in 6mm). Speaking of just that...here's what Chris is working on:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yn_qc3 ... sp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1B0tMyf ... sp=sharing


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 Post subject: Re: Elysian Drop Troop Army List V4.0 development
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:38 pm 
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Cosmic Serpent wrote:

Lets keep the discussion here focused on the list. Models should be discussed off in the modeling area, really, and in Deb's OP which has a model list of proxies IIRC. :)

Deb wrote:
The list still has a few weaknesses: most infantry have no armour save, only every 2nd unit gets the special weapon for most formations, no fearless (except Commissar).


Those are standard for all guard armies however and isn't a weakness specific to this list. Changing any of those and you're not playing the guard theme as trailblazed almost 2 decades before. Your primary AA and support should be flyers in this list and should come at discounts and more options than is typical in lists instead of heavier artillery.

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