I only have a couple of games of direct experience with the Stormhammer, but I do perceive it as overgunned compared to its competitors.

Perhaps a direct comparison would be useful? Compared to the baneblade:

+1 FF
+1 Battle cannon
+1 Twin heavy bolter
+2 Lascannons
-1 Autocannon
-1 Demolisher cannon
-30cm Battle cannon range

The problem, to me, is that while the baneblade has the longer ranged main gun, people rarely use the baneblade at range. In order for it to be effective, it must operate up close to get all guns in range, and this removes it's only advantage compared to the stormhammer.

Since both need to be used up close to be effective, and the stormhammer is better up close, it seems sensible to me to make it harder for the stormhammer to get up close in the first place. Therefore 10cm movement makes a lot of sense to me.

Frankly I'd be happy with other nerfs instead, and as I said, this is mostly based on theory rather than game experience.

Jonluke has tested them extensively and is of a similar opinion.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

I designed its stats to work with 10cm speed;  If you want it to be 15cm speed (For aesthetic reasons, apparently) then you're going to need to either heavily cut its number of guns, or increase its points cost significantly.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Point of interest just encountered in Pulsar vs Jonluke Black Templar vs Minervans:

Stormhammer company are within sustain fire range of a Crusader formation.

2 Stormhammers are in range with all guns, the third of lascannons and battlecannons giving 26 shots overall;
6 2+/2+
8 AP3+
12 AT4+

Luckily twenty of these hit! Twenty hits from 2 2/3 tanks! 8 AP and 12 AT!

Had it been baneblades:
3 2+/2+
3 AP4+/AT5+
6 AT4+
2 AP2+/AT3+ ignore cover
6 AP3+

Had I split the fire the same and using the same dice I'd have achieved 8 AT and 8 AP hits.

Doesn't sound much difference but four hits is a significant advantage in epic.

One of the three space marine vehicles actually survived this! Rolling 6,6,6,5! All else died.

_________________
"Stars in my pocket like grains of sand."

www.spartangames.co.uk

As a random observation, we've played the Minervan list twice.  Both times the IG player took mixed companies rather than purely one version.  In both cases we felt the mixed companies were more durable and versatile due to the variety.  That seems to be important when you have high average formation costs and low activation counts.

To elaborate a bit, something like a pure Stormhammer company is clearly something to kill at range, while Shadowswords are a prime target to close with as fast as possible.  However, something like 2 Baneblades and a Shadowsword can defend itself and take on a variety of opponents even if it doesn't always optimize the Shadowsword due to range.  It's a fine formation for taking on nearly any enemy, including WEs as the AT fire can strip shields before the TK or just provide volume of fire against holofields.  Versatility can be critical if/when activation count does drop.  You may not get to pick which target you have to kill to stop the opponent from that last goal.  If you have pure Shadowswords that need to take on an Ork infantry horde you're in a lot more trouble than if you have a Baneblade with them.

Obviously, a change in speed would make mixing Stormhammers infeasible.

_________________
Neal

Did the Stormhammer have lascannons in its initial incarnation? I dont remember them- just a bucket load of bolters.

Cheers

James

_________________
My TOEG- Blood Angels and Deathbolts
My Painting Blog- Evil Sunz, Goffs
My Epic trades list

I though that we were adding the 2 lascannons to the Baneblade?

_________________
"For the Lion and the Emperor!"

i am new to the minervans, only acounting for 3 games with them to date. im also alien to the subtle nuances of mixed SHT's. i have 3 of each one in the raiders book, but have yet to mix them. i busted out my copy of raiders this morning and started looking at different russ and SHT config to best make them versatile to multiple situations.

what are some good configs that other guard/minervan plays use?

Instead of relying on SHT Companies I field two Leman russ Companies. They eat up quite a lot of points (nearly half of 3k) but are more flexible and durable (imho). They are backed up with an Infantry platoon, two shadowswords , Stormtroopers with Valcs, Thunderbolts and eighter a flight of vultures or a Warhound Scout Titan (depends on the upgrades I choose for the Leman Russes)

I have not seen anybody field Minervans with this configuration, they are hard to play, your activation count is low and you are quite vulnerable to fast and/or AT-heavy armies (eldar, tau). But they are hell fun to play, versatile and can be quite devastating when exploiting enemy failures. Eldar formations are simply erased when making an error. Generally I think the LR Companies are too expensive to allow the Minervans to perform better than averange with two of them in 3k lists.

I always think SHT Companies make me too static. They gave me the same feeling as a boring slow-boat static infantry army, which I tried to avoid at all costs.

Edit: My LR Company is about: 5 Russes,3 Demolisher,1 Exterminator(for the Commissar),1 Salamander command, Hydra,1 Vanquisher (while they costed +10 pts).

Soren

_________________
Attrition is the proof of absence of Strategy

I use 2 formations of SHTs:

2Stormhammers + 1 Baneblade/Shadowsword
2Shadowswords + 1 Stormhammer

The first keeps the 'hammers relevant at range.

The second is ablative armor and point defense for Shadowswords.

I generally put both a Commissar and my SC into the same Stormhammer.

My usual list is
SHT (one of the above with SC)
Leman Russ Company (9 standards + vanquisher, and hydras)
Artillery battery
Mech Infantry
Tank Platoon (6demolishers)
3-4 Thunderbolt squadrons

The air power is absolutely required for Minervans just to have some throw away activations to hold off until there's better things to kill with Russes on Sustain/OW.

_________________
Fear is for the enemy, fear and bullets.
-James O'Barr, the Crow