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Proposed Steel Legion Changes
Magarch
 Post subject: Proposed Steel Legion Changes
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 7:03 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ May 05 2008,18:57)
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I see your point, but then it comes down to how many would you get and how much would they cost? Compulsory for expensive armour, maybe for infantry, no way for sentinels! :)

Well, I guess all the companies could have one, with some of the support formations like Kasrkin and Rough Riders. It's true the Commissar should cost 50 points for all what he gives to the formation...But then, I think the companies already cost enough like that. That's why I suggested a +25 points.

The trick is as the Commissar would be an upgrade for companies and some formations, it would count as one in the maximum a company can take. It gives a choice to the player, and I like that as well.


(Hena @ May 05 2008,18:58)
QUOTE
But it also reflects the army itself. Commissars should be in IG armies. Especially at the level of Epic, there should be several. I guess you could mandate that you have to take these 1 per 500, but IMO this way it's better. Same can be said of the Marine transport rule. Marines should be highly mobile force. It goes against background to allow all foot slogging marines (and by costing the Rhinos, you'd give more reason to do so).

You know, the spirit of the army and the armies made by the players are two different things. About the Space Marine list, I doubt these super soldiers never try to attack an opponent without the support of one of two Warhounds or always use Thunderbolt fighters to protect them from evil aircraft. Still, by seeing most of the lists played in tournaments, that's what you could wonder.

The thing is, if you give the opportunity to have a most usefull thing in their army to the players, they will take it. Hey, why shouldn't they use what they can have ? After all, the list allow them to take it.

By the way, the Space Marines don't really have "free" transport ; it's just that it was included in their cost, in opposite with the Imperial Guard.

I agree with you, every army list has a spirit behind it. But that spirit doesn't mean some things should be "free" so that players will take it. That's even more true when these things are so usefull that players will take then anyway if the price isn't too high. Setting it free isn't really needed in that case.

And leaving all that "free stuff" mind behind would help for the creation of others lists, 'cause some reasoning is more like "official army lists have free stuff, so why not us ?". That's a bad thing on the long term, I believe.


Edit: Note that you could create an army where there is no Commissars. Then one could perhaps downgrade some units costs (where you would expect a Commissar to be) or give some other bonus.


Why is that ? The cost of Imperial formations is quite fair, to my eyes. It's just the commissars are free - and I mean, really free ! That's why I feel it would be more right to set them at a given price in army points.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Proposed Steel Legion Changes
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:44 am 
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Aren't Commissars also used in Titans?


Nope, the Adeptus-Mechanicus doesn't allow Commissars to interfere with its military operations.

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Shadowsword
 Post subject: Proposed Steel Legion Changes
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:50 am 
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@E&C: Thanks!

So this should also be mentioned in the Armylist: No Commissars for Titan Legion.
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Chroma
 Post subject: Proposed Steel Legion Changes
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 2:38 pm 
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(Dave @ May 14 2008,14:34)
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Or Spaceships :)

You could have a Commissar on a spaceship... it wouldn't do anything mind you... *laugh*

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netepic
 Post subject: Proposed Steel Legion Changes
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 3:18 pm 
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I think we can just assume Spaceships have there own commissar and don't require onto to be allocated...

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Soren
 Post subject: Proposed Steel Legion Changes
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 7:10 am 
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(Magarch @ May 05 2008,13:42)
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I would like to see Commissars as an upgrade for companies / some choosen formations like this ;

Commissar
Add one Commissar to one unit of your formation. If your formation include a Commander unit or a Supreme Commander unit, the Commissar must be attached to it.
Cost : 25 points

And remove that "Free Commissar" rule. Characters with Charismatic, Fearless and Leader rules shouldn't be free, especially when you can put them where you want, making some formations actually much more powerfull for their cost. And it is an Imperial Guard player who is talking. ?:D

Theyx are not free. their costs are already included in the formation prices. Only because there is no pts sticker behind a entry there is no reason to believe you will not pay them in another way.

Keep es as they are. Else all formations which include a commissar have to get cheaper for exact the points the commissar costs.

btw The Steel Legfion list is one of the most balanced lists present. I hesitate to change anything vital to the list. Some units may suck, so what. I use some of them for style reasons. If tourney player do not use them, what care should I take about that? :;):

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Proposed Steel Legion Changes
PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2008 3:04 pm 
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To be fair if you use units regaurdless what difference should changes to a tourney list make to you? :)

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Soren
 Post subject: Proposed Steel Legion Changes
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 7:33 am 
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Changes are OK as long as they are not senseless and to be honest the change to Commissars ?to make them cost something and decrease the point cost on the other way is the top of senseless by all means. I slowly get tired of working through dozens of threads with changes proposed (and sadly some of them sanctioned) which add nothing to the game but the satisfaction of some personal feelings. (What the hell is the change of renaming patterns of sentinel? Who the heck cares about this)

I will try to state the problem: (humbly english, I hope you get the clue)
Last week I tried to get in some new players (with good results until we got to the army lists)
He was really ambitious and we went on making our lists (Me Marines, he Eldar)
He rolled through the Tactical command some month ago only to get a outdated list with changes now revised.
Conclusion:
He doesn?t want to get into the game until the lists are updated and not changed ever two weeks (say month :;): ) and many of the bystanders asked: And how do I get the recent list if there are changes so fast? And how do you be up to date? (Should I say by investing at least 2 hours a day thread crawling?)

To be honest if I were new to the game, I would not get into it. Far to complicated, far too many tweaks because somebody thinks something is not right spelled, far too much senseless changes.

And to add a note, even me is getting tired about the game, sadly, but it has changed. The plain, straight rules and army list have been reverted to the playgrounds of hardcore changers and wannabe background integrators.

That?s not Epic was intended to be, at least not the version I began to play with.

Sorry for my harsh words, It really gets frustrating over the time to look into this forum......

Soren

btw: happy Birthday CS




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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Proposed Steel Legion Changes
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 9:49 am 
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These are the Epic playtest discussion boards for armylists :) If you note incredibly few changes ever get made, but lots of things are discussed! And to be fair this was the way Epic was intended to go. Lots of discussion, doing everything to death, then balancing the lists if absolutely nessecery and very few changes (I still favour a seperate Steel Legion list with all this stuff in). Your friend can't really complain if he picked up a list of stuff to be playtested then discover its changed in light of experience. The core is still the same, none of these changes are final yet and odds on very few will ever be implemented.

I suggest steering clear of the EA forcelists section!

And re sentinels, if I want to have a list that uses lascannon armed models what do I call them? :) And equally want difference does it actually make to lists and games?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Proposed Steel Legion Changes
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 10:15 am 
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I slowly get tired of wanking... which add nothing to the game but the satisfaction of some personal feelings.


I dearly hope this is a typo. :D


(What the hell is the change of renaming patterns of sentinel? Who the heck cares about this)

I too find this name change extraneous for the current list, but desirable from a background perspective if we want a lascannon-armed sentinel in the future.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Proposed Steel Legion Changes
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 2:24 pm 
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Obviously in my True Steel Legion/Steel Legion PDF army list there is the proper Armageddon Pattern Sentinel. :D

Remindsme to remove the firing arc from the Twin Heavy bolters from the Stormsword....perhabs from the Leviathan's Twin Lascannons too.




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Lord Gabriel Lupus
 Post subject: Proposed Steel Legion Changes
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 2:30 pm 
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Regarding the proposed change to Baneblades:

Baneblades become Mars pattern. Replace all
Baneblade weapons with the following
3 x Twin Heavy Bolters, 30cm, AP4+
2 x Lascannon, 45cm, AT5+
Autocannon, 45cm, AP5+/AT6+
Demolisher Cannon, 30cm, AP3+/AT4+, Ignore Cover, Fixed Forward
Main Battle Cannon, 75cm, AP3+/AT3+
Reasoning, the tank was under gunned for its points in comparison to other Guard armour and a poor choice verses shadowswords. And perhaps most importantly weren't WYSIWYG when compared to the best Baneblade models!

OH DEAR EMPEROR YES!!! I can't understand why the Baneblade has only one heavy bolter in its current fit out - that means it has less than the shadowsword... it just doesn't ring true.
I couldn't agree more with you that they are completely overshadowed by shadowswords which are the same points... although I think the battle cannon becoming AP3+/AT3+ may be a bit over the top - leave that as AP4+/AT4+?

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