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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London
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Since the marine tactics thread became a pros and cons of potential changes its probably worth resurecting that topic. However rather than straight debate over the suggestions I thought we could bring newer players up to speed with the formations and upgrades and the pros and cons of each. Kind of mix it with the tactics thread. Then after do the normal changes list and pros and cons of the suggestions. And if the rules review finishes before that we can take that into account 
Suggested heading for analysis
Marine overview - what is this lists strength/intent
Detachments and specifc upgrades
Thunderhawk
Landing Craft
Strike Cruiser
-Battle Barge
Assault
Bike
- Attack Bike
Land Speeder
-Typhoon/Tornado
Terminator
Devastator
Tactical
Scout
-Scout Sniper
Whirlwind
Land Raider
Predators, typically all Annihilators or Destructors
Vindicator
General upgrades
Captain
Librarian
Chaplain
Supreme Commander
Dreadnought
Hunter
Land Raiders
Razorbacks
Vindicator
Titans
Warlord Class Titan
Reaver Class Titan
One Warhound Titan
Two Warhound Titans
Aircraft
Thunderbolt
Marauder
Well I'll slowly give me answer to the above, but would love it if others could contribute as well with formation uses, interesting tricks etc.
Overview
I see the list as an airdrop list - that is the capacity for air assault moderates everything else in terms of its optimum use. Sure there are other options, but some units work best when deployed in this fashion. The need for manoeuvrability in non air assets does also impact on certain AV choices.
Something to avoid is the 'token AV'. That is infantry formations with one or two av's attached. Marine armour is relatively expensive with little ra. Generally only add armour to armour or rhino based formations, but if you want a forward garrison with a hunter you could consider covering it with some ablative dreadnaught sandbags.
Ultimately it is an assault, not shooting, force and needs to look for chances to out manoeuvre the enemy rather than a straight leman Russ style in your face firepower. There is a proviso to this. With extreme mobility crossfire can be easy to obtain, giving a nice set of teetch to even a tactical marine formations firepower.
Thunderhawk
One of the defining marine pieces of equipment. A force multiplier for CC and FF units. Excellent armour, firepower and air transport abilities. Just watch out for criticals. Controversal use in the snatching or contesting of objectives late game. Popular load outs include assault + dev marines, terminators for extra CC punch, Devs for FF or landing and shooting. If you on a budget adding 2 dreadnaughts is a way of boosting a dev formation or toping up a tactical loadout. Characters oft find themselves mixed into loadouts. Oh and don't forget to consider 'barging' or rather landing on top of the enemy to CC those poor Leman Russ!
Landing Craft
A beast. Anything the 'hawk can do this can do more of as well as act as a force multiplier for marine armour so it doesn't have to, well, risk its armour on the way to target. For mass assaults or shooting attacks its hard to beat. The most novel use I've seen was to land it next to a remaining infantry stand from the bts, blocking line of sight to it and enabling a narrow win.
The planetfall ability is a great way of delivering formations with their vehicles to the enemy. A planetfall followed by a retain to disperse from the landing zone can play havoc and is entirely flak free. Finally fearless means even if you lose an assault you just sit in place, oblivious to the ants crawly around you.
True Landing Craft conissers will have two models - one fully loaded with vehicles to fly around the board and one empty with landing gear down either on the ground or just lifting off. Ahem, where was I?
Assault detachment
An example of the above. On the ground this is very poor. Sure it has speed, but so do bikes. Small unit size means casaulties in an assault only formation really hurt. But... It works well when deployed by thunderhawk or landing craft. The longer disembark move helps spread troops out post assault. There are other list choices though, potentially giving more naked power or cheaper load out(terminators for power without numbers, devs with dreds for a cheap alternative etc). The only remaining air uses for this formation then is if you want a wide deployment as they can land 15cm away from the lander, or if you value having four more stand for outnumbering purposes instead of MW attacks.
I have never gotten the vindicator option the work for me, the tank isn't good enough supporting the assault and is a big break on formation speed. However if you are in range with the gun end of the turn you are in range to charge start of next!
Bike Detachment
An excellent source of ground attack. Can be air transported too for flexibility pre game. 5 strong, high speed, good save, excellent cc and good FF the only flaw is the mounted factor and thus moving through rough terrain. A good assault choice though - anyone have any problem with it?
- Attack Bike
Sacrifice a bikes CC value and infantry status for firepower. The ability to lay a bm is fairly handy - the big problem with the bike is the slowing down of the unit and the ability for AT weapons to target it. As a result very rare. As a 5 strong attack bike squadron loses out to Landspeeders in flexibility despite a slight edge in AP firepower. Generally AP firepower is not a problem for the list though, AT is, further enhancing the 'speeders over attack bikes.
Land Speeders
Excellent formation for supporting firefights or if you are good getting a sustain fire MW attack. Extreme short range though balances the high speed, save, skimmer and MW making them a suicide formation if not use properly.
-Typhoon/Tornado
Haven't used them for years! Anyone help out?
Terminators
The 'ultimate' marine formation. More punch in a thunderhawk than 2 formations of assault marines. The ability to teleport. Tougher than a Leman Russ. Good AP and the best infantry AT attack. All they lack is an AA ability! If there is a downside it is that they only move 15cm. A way round this is to add Land Raiders. A poor option though, the formation costs base 725 points and they may never die you are unlikely to make your points back. Best use for it is to take enemy BTS, but beware losing a tank and slowing the formation down or abandoning two stands. This can be mitigated with the use of a landing craft, in which case you can probably sit ont he enmy bts all game further reinforced with two dreadnaughts (try it, gives an oponent heartache!). A varient is to the vindicators upgrade and a four strong pred formation. Not as tough however. This is the only time to add vindies though, otherwise they give easy kills to the enemy or raise the mechanised formation cost to 875! Stick to warloards at that level.
Devastators
A solid firebase or air assault component. Best thunderhawk load out in my experience is 2 formations for assault or shooting. If you are out of points replace the devs with some assault marines, though typically this mix will be the death of the assault guys.
On the ground can be used in rhinos to create crossfires or take advantage of such, or reinforced to act as garrisons, potentialy with two dreads and a hunter. The addition of razorbacks and a hunter gives a good AT formation for 400 points. If you want land raiders it is up to you to decide between 50 points for 2 razorbacks or 100 points for 1 land raider. Tougher, less models, one more attack. For me the Razorbacks have the edge due to cost and numbers, plus the ability to make the formation into an excellent infantry hunter.
Tacticals
A building block of the force. However can lose out in 'optimised' forces as cannot deep strike as effectively as the above. However the larger formation size give staying power and assault numbers. Drop pods or planetfalling landing craft (especially the latter as the rhinos come along and it gives the chance to disperse from the landing zone, something an air assault doesn't) give back the deep strike capability though even deployed in your deployment zone with a few upgrades they are tough to deal with, ATSKNF playing well with the larger formation. If you are rhino based and not air assaulting always add at least one Razorback. Dreds are an option with a hunter for a garrison, though in away is waste of the mobility. Only consider vindicators after you have bought 5 razorbacks unless you want a slightly tougher unit out front to take advantage of the slightly higher save, they will slow the formaton down used in this way.
The troops themselves have all round abilities - FF, CC and shooting. In a force with expensive activations this is more useful as it sounds, giving the ability to react or take the initative from a wide range of foes. Captains or supreme commanders oft get added to Tactical formations to take advantage of the numbers for protection, assault or simply style purposes.
Scouts
Another great formation. Even with 4 vehicles they can still garrison and with the scout cause disruption reguardless of how they deploy. A tactic that for many armies is very hard to deal with is the 'scout drop'. Strike cruiser, 5 formations of scouts. There is some escape for garrisons and the like, but otherwise the entire enemy deployment zone and then some can be blanketed with deathwind or orbital strike templates. Inflitrate and 4+ CC is also a deadly combination if you get in the right position to use it. Adding 3-4 razorbacks makes for a cheap anti infantry firebase that cost less than Devestators but with slightly less range and worse armour - compensate by lurking in towns.
-Scout Sniper
Rarely taken for two reasons. 1, there is no model so either conversion or some other method is needed for identification. 2, it isn't that good. For 25 points a 30cm 5+ chance of killing a specific unit ain't that good - you could have a razorback instead. Though catching wraithguard in a crossfire with a sniper is always worth the trouble.
Whirlwinds
The only non allied barrage weapon availible. The short range means deployment zone strikes are out - a first turn sustain order is either responsive to enemy movements or a chance to barrage a garrison. Hard to use as easily as longer ranged artillary or even fast movers like Warhounds, one casualty is also a 50% drop in firepower. For this best used in a flank support role on enemy objectives, limiting incoming fire. Sometimes hunters are attached to boost AA, but also to be the 'first' unit lost, not permanently affecting the formations firepower. You would probably have some sort of cunning, maybe airborn, plan to want to attach a commander.
Land Raider
Tough, well armed, fast. Average in assaults. Smail unit size. Cost an arm and leg. All this adds up to an excellent target for enemy MW and TK shots. Avoid them, get into the heart of the enemy (perhaps through air transportation) to generate crossfires for other formations and maybe you can make them worth it.
BB - turn 3 drop onto enemy objectives corner to corner.
_________________ If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913 "Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography." General Plumer, 191x
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