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The Evacuation

Lion in the Stars

Post subject: The Evacuation

Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:00 am

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Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455

I'm going to leave the fluff out.

This battle is fought on a 6x8 board (sorry, 180x240cm). ?The terrain is desert, with the usual rolling dunes and rock outcroppings. ?The Marines deploy first, within 30cm of their table edge, and may start the game dug-in (use the rules for entrenchments from FO13, The Assault).

The Tau Forces will enter from the opposite table edge when they have initiative.

Objectives
The Tau forces must break through the Marine Cordon to overrun the retreating Imperial Guard forces at the landing grounds. ?The Tau have 5 turns to accomplish this. ?If the Space Marines are still fighting at the end of Turn 5, the Marines win.

Forces of the Imperium
Raptors Space Marines - 3rd Company (1725 total)
Tac Det with Captain and Dread (400)
Tac Det with Chaplain and Dread (400)
Assault Det (175)
Devastator Det with 4 Razorbacks (350)
Land Raider Det (400)

Raptors Space Marines - 6th Company (1650)
Tac Det with Captain and Dread (400)
Tac Det with Chaplain and Dread (400)
Tac Det with Dread (350)
2x Land Speeder dets, all Tornados (250 each)

Armory (1425)
Predator Det (300)
Whirlwind Det with Hunter (375)
2x Thunderhawks, each with an extra AT4+ attack from rockets (200 ea)
Battlebarge (350)

Tau Forces
Manta 1, carrying: (850, 1950 total)
Battlesuit Cadre + Shas'o (350)
Broadside Contingent (300)
2x Gun Drone Contingent (75 ea)
Fire Warrior Cadre of 6 w/ 3 DFish + Skyray (300)

Manta 2, carrying: (850, 1725 total)
Fire Warrior Cadre + Crisis upgrade (325)
Stealth Contingent (275)
Hammerhead Contingent (3 HH) + Skyray (275)

Manta 3, carrying: (850, 1900 total)
Battlesuit Cadre + Shas'el (300)
Broadside Contingent (300)
2x Gun Drone Contingent (75 ea)
Fire Warrior Cadre of 6 w/ 3 DFish + Skyray (300)

Manta 4, carrying: (850, 1725 total)
Fire Warrior Cadre + Crisis upgrade (325)
Stealth Contingent (275)
Hammerhead Contingent (3 HH) + Skyray (275)

Notes:
This is the full list, the game should be played on a larger table with the full list. ?Alternatively, the game can be played on a 4x6 table using the Raptor's 3rd company and Armory against the Tau's Manta 1 & 2, and then playing a second game with the 6th Company and the Armory against Mantas 2& 3.

[edit: added points values, and removed one Manta+cargo. Raptors Space Marine total 4800, Tau total 5575]

*CLANG!* The gauntlet is at your feet. ?Will you pick it up?

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Legion 4

Post subject: The Evacuation

Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:27 am

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36989
Location: Ohio - USA

Does sound interesting !

Sounds like the SM1 Blitzkrieg Scenario !

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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Lion in the Stars

Post subject: The Evacuation

Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:46 am

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Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
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Considering that I pulled that scenario out of IA3, it wouldn't surprise me that Forgeworld ripped the SM1 Blitz scenario for 'inspiration'.

Are there any takers out there, to see if the Marines can hold their ground in a defensive battle?

You don't need to play the full version, one of the Partials will work, but I'd like to hear if the Marines can hold or not. This will help us determine how much needs to be done to fix the ground portion of the Astartes list.

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Legion 4

Post subject: The Evacuation

Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:56 am

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36989
Location: Ohio - USA

The AT1/SM1 random scenario generation system that and the SM1 Off Board Support rules, were excellent and we still use them ! But I'm thinking, based on my previous Epic gaming, and my Tau are SIB ... the SMs in that battle will have their hands full. And if the SMs hold out to turn 5, there won't be many left !

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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Lion in the Stars

Post subject: The Evacuation

Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:13 am

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Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455

I edited the forces after you posted, there's one less Manta + cargo now. The Tau won't be having such an easy time now, but there don't need to be many marines left, all that matters is that there are some unbroken Marines left at the end of turn 5, after the rally phase.

It's only 4800 Marine points vs 5575 Tau points, which is well under the 50% greater forces that the Tau should have. (Marines are only about 15% outnumbered). Adding Manta 4 back in will put the Tau back to the 50% greater numbers that the attacker should have in this scenario. (Manta 4 is a clone of Manta 2, if anyone wants to play with 4 Mantas.)

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Legion 4

Post subject: The Evacuation

Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:58 pm

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
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Location: Ohio - USA

4 Mantas ... that's a lot of firepower ...

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: The Evacuation

Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:24 pm

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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

(Hena @ Oct. 21 2006,18:02)

QUOTE

(Lion in the Stars @ Oct. 21 2006,09:13)

QUOTE

It's only 4800 Marine points vs 5575 Tau points, which is well under the 50% greater forces that the Tau should have. (Marines are only about 15% outnumbered). Adding Manta 4 back in will put the Tau back to the 50% greater numbers that the attacker should have in this scenario. (Manta 4 is a clone of Manta 2, if anyone wants to play with 4 Mantas.)

However those mantas go wy beyond their allowance (eg. one third of total). So in a sense it isn't balanced.

It's a historical Scenario in which the Marines won... so they should be able to at least survive here... if the army list is at all balanced (And we all know its not).

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Lion in the Stars

Post subject: The Evacuation

Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:36 pm

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Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455

Actually, there's 1925 points available for WE support, which is enough for 2 Mantas with 225 points left over (625 points over the limit for 3 Mantas, ~46% WE; and adding Manta 4 shifts that to 2433 points of support, and the list is 967 points over limit, ~47% WE). The other side of the coin is that many Tau players consider the Manta way underpowered (or overpointed). This scenario may be less than stellar for a test example, if we go by a points comparison.

Nevertheless, the fact is that the Marines held in this scenario 'historically'. This means that they should be able to hold in the game. Any game that cannot reproduce historical results is failing, and since the only army that has this problem (at least the only army that's been brought to my attention with this problem) is the Marines, the Marine list is failing.

Hena: as far as size of the model goes, a 40k scale devilfish makes a pretty good proxy for a Manta, as does a Custodian carrier from BFG.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: The Evacuation

Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:51 pm

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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

(Hena @ Oct. 21 2006,19:46)

QUOTE

(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 21 2006,20:24)

QUOTE

It's a historical Scenario in which the Marines won... so they should be able to at least survive here... if the army list is at all balanced (And we all know its not).

I don't think so. Fluff has always made marine a lot better than they are in game. So this bit I disagree with. Stories are stories and don't have to reflect game that much

.

Same can be said of any army.

This scenario is pretty much direct from IA:3's scenario pages IIRC.

If the marines have no chance of achieving their objective, there's something very wrong with the list.

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Legion 4

Post subject: The Evacuation

Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:17 pm

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36989
Location: Ohio - USA

"Historical" scenarios are not always balanced ...

But I'm sure the SMs could win if all goes well ... It will come down to the respective commanders/gamers skill and a little luck ! :;):

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

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Lion in the Stars

Post subject: The Evacuation

Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:30 pm

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Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455

Yeah, I directly copied the ORBAT and victory conditions from an IA3 scenario (Evacuation, on page 304 of IA3 to be exact). I did make one slight tweak, since there's not really enough Marine armor on-planet to be able to simply double the Marine Armory.

FW suggests playing the game with 3rd Company and the Armory vs Mantas 1&2, then playing another game against 6th Company and the Armory vs Mantas 2&3. I just combined the entire force into one for a larger battle.

I'm too used to the rules from other forums I frequent, where you cant even mention points costs of complete units. Copying a scenario out of an IA3 book would get me banned from that forum. Give me a little bit, and I'll copy the EXACT scenario out of IA3 for you, Hena.

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consectari

Post subject: The Evacuation

Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:53 pm

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Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 7:36 pm
Posts: 946
Location: On the Ohio river, USA

As much as I'm in favor of making some changes to the Codex list, the logic here is somewhat flawed.

Stating that you should be able to duplicate the events of a fictional story in the game is not realistic.

Fictional stories are often full of small forces winning vastly onesided battles. That doesn't mean it could or even should be able to be replicated in the game.

It's a noble effort, but I don't think it's what is needed to make the case for changes.

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