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Land Speeder Tempests
Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Land Speeder Tempests
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:29 am 
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I've got another unit to add to the discussion for the Fanatic article:  Land Speeder Tempests.  It's a slightly heavier Land Speeder variant, designed as a gunship.  

(Imperial Armour 2:  Space Marines & Forces of the Inquisition @ page 125)
QUOTE
    The Tempest is a fully enclosed, heavily armed and armored variant of the Land Speeder.  It forgoes the Land Speeder's usual long-range reconnaissance and patrolling role and is instead a pure gunship, carrying heavy firepower with which to engage enemy infantry and armor.
[snip]
    Other Chapters have since used the White Scars original plans to create their own Tempests.  Although they are not as common as Tornados or Typhoons, many Chapters have a few Tempests in their Armory.


This unit could have been included with the White Scars, and could still be included with the Dark Angels (the Ravenwing does not use Typhoons, and uses Tempests in their place).

Since the 40k rules give the Tempest AV11, equal to that of a Rhino, I propose the following stats for playtest:

Land Speeder Tempest
AV, 35cm, 5+sv, 6+cc, 5+ff
Assault Cannon:  30cm AP5+/AT5+
Twin Missile Launcher:  45cm AP4+/AT5+
Notes:  Skimmer, Scout

This would be either a separate formation of 5, or an upgrade to a Land Speeder formation.  They are considerably less common than a normal Land Speeder (they're taken singly in 40k, instead of a formation of 1-3).

What do you think?

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Land Speeder Tempests
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:43 am 
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Stats look good, but it should stay at 4+ LightVehicle (the Rhino has armour 11/11/10, the LandSpeeder Tempest only 11/10/10, not big a difference).

It should be an 0-1 or 0-2 upgrade for the LandSpeeder formation because it is so rare. With 30pts per Tempest.




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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Land Speeder Tempests
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 3:29 am 
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Yeah, but a Vulture or Valkyrie (admittedly, both 11/11/10) is AV5+.  As far as not a big difference, a Bolter or shoota can shoot down a Land Speeder, but a Tempest is invulnerable to anything less than a Heavy bolter or Pulse rifle across the front arc (just like a Rhino) while it relies on it's speed against antitank weapons.  It needs to be in a place between LV4+ and AV5+, since 10/10/10 armor is LV4+ and 11/11/10 armor is AV5+.  I'd really like to see improved armor, but... Maybe LV3+?

Also, I think this is one unit that should be a 0-1 or 0-2 formation all by itself, instead of an upgrade to Land speeders.  It's used differently in the fluff, so shouldn't be included in a formation of Landspeeders.  For example, the White Scars always field a couple squadrons of Tempests, one named "Jotun's Avengers", and the Ravenwing fields Tempests instead of Typhoons (Dark Angel reserve companies use the Typhoons).

As a separate formation, with AV5+, I'd suggest a formation of 5 for 375 points, the same as 5 Vultures, but without the Hellstrikes.  Actually, at AV5+, they have almost exactly the same stats as Vultures, but with a 30cm AT5+ instead of the Hellstrikes 120cm AT2+, and they'd have ATSKNF.

Your suggestion of +35 points each as an upgrade makes a formation of 5 Tempests 375 points, but they'd only be seen as an upgrade to Typhoon Formations (adding some AT firepower which Typhoons lack), for a 335-point formation (1 Tempest) or a 345-point formation (2 Tempests).

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Land Speeder Tempests
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:09 pm 
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They should keep the 4+ armour save of normal Land Speeders.

I'd have them as a 0-1 per every two normal land speeder formations, so normal Land Speeders will always be in the majority, and you can also price them appropriately (375 points lol).

Oh and I like them. :)

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Land Speeder Tempests
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:56 am 
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Just to clarify, that's 0-1 Tempest formation for every 2 Land Speeder formations, right?

I still have a bit of an issue with this, as the Ravenwing runs Tempests but by my count only runs 2 LandSpeeder formations total.  I can put the entire Ravenwing in one 40k Force Org Chart, 30 Bikes, 15 Attack Bikes, and 9 Land Speeders plus the MotRW (10 total) [E:A terms:  2 Bike Formations, 3 Attack Bike Formations, 2 Speeder formations].  It's not a huge deal, as I can swap an Attack Bike formation out, but I'm just a little unhappy with having a different Ravenwing in 40k and E:A (needing the additional Land Speeders means that the Ravenwing doesn't work in one FOC anymore).

So, that puts us to:
Land Speeder Tempest
LV, 35cm, 4+sv, 6+cc, 5+ff
Assault Cannon:  30cm AP5+/AT5+
Twin Missile Launcher:  45cm AP4+/AT5+
Notes:  Skimmer, Scout

375 points for a formation of 5, with a limit of 0-1 Tempest formation per 2 Land Speeder formations.  You must have 2 Land Speeder formations before purchasing a Tempest formation.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Land Speeder Tempests
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:06 pm 
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I've noticed that in the Tau Armylist the Piranha has a LV 5+ save and it has 11/10/10 also. Some kind of inconsistencies here?

As for that the Tempest is fielded as its own andnotin squadrons in Wh40k: This comes from the old Codex Space Marines. There LandSpeeders operated in squadrons of 1-3 and its variants (Tornado/Typhoon) operated alone.
In the new codex you can mix all three types in one squadron.
The Tempest rules where developed as the old codex was in use
So i think you can mix the Tempest with the other variants.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Land Speeder Tempests
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:13 pm 
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I say again, 375 points is daftly overpriced for such a unit. 200-250 is more appropriate.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Land Speeder Tempests
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:25 pm 
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The Typhoon costs +25pts and the Tempest is slightly better armed than the Typhoon. So i'm for +30pts per Tempest(better would be +55pts for 2 Tempests buts thats +27,5pts is an odd number). That would be 350pts for a whole Tempest Formation.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Land Speeder Tempests
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:30 pm 
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Aye well the Typhoon is also overpriced. :)

Remember, two thirds of the units in the Marine list are either useless or only have niche roles. :)




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dptdexys
 Post subject: Land Speeder Tempests
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:38 pm 
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(Lion in the Stars @ Oct. 14 2006,01:29)
QUOTE
I've got another unit to add to the discussion for the Fanatic article: ?Land Speeder Tempests. ?It's a slightly heavier Land Speeder variant, designed as a gunship. ?

(Imperial Armour 2: ?Space Marines & Forces of the Inquisition @ page 125)
QUOTE
? ? The Tempest is a fully enclosed, heavily armed and armored variant of the Land Speeder. ?It forgoes the Land Speeder's usual long-range reconnaissance and patrolling role and is instead a pure gunship, carrying heavy firepower with which to engage enemy infantry and armor.
[snip]
? ? Other Chapters have since used the White Scars original plans to create their own Tempests. ?Although they are not as common as Tornados or Typhoons, many Chapters have a few Tempests in their Armory.


Land Speeder Tempest
AV, 35cm, 5+sv, 6+cc, 5+ff
Assault Cannon: ?30cm AP5+/AT5+
Twin Missile Launcher: ?45cm AP4+/AT5+
Notes: ?Skimmer, Scout

If the Tempest is not used for recon as the quote says then I'd suggest having the armour kept at 4 + and dropping the scout ability to compensate and have the upgrade cost kept at  + 25 points similar to the typhoon.
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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Land Speeder Tempests
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:23 am 
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BlackLegion:  Piranhas are open-topped, which makes them exceptionally fragile vs template weapons.  Also, in IA2, Tempests are the only Land Speeders that cannot be taken in squadrons, all the others can be mixed.  Given the fluff, I don't think that Tempests should be mixed into Land Speeder formations.
***************
Tempests have nearly the same firepower as IG Vultures (They trade the One-shot 120cm AT2+ for a 30cm AT5+ and ATSKNF), so I think that they should have the same cost (75 points each) since they fill the same role (and the Tempests can take more fire than the Vultures as they close in).  Base Land Speeder is 40 points each, Tornado is 50, and a Typhoon is 65.

Losing Scout is something I don't really like.  IG Vultures and Valkyries both have Scout.  Since a Tempest has the same role as a Vulture, it should also have Scout (that's why I didn't remove Scout, actually).  Look at it this way:  Aircraft (especially Helicopters) in combat need to be farther apart than armored vehicles on the ground.  Scout lets them stay in coherency without having to be dangerously close together.  It doesn't actually represent them being used for scouting.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Land Speeder Tempests
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 5:48 am 
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Ah, open topped, ok.

But i thaid, that IA 2 is from the days of the OLD Codex: Space Marines. There Tornados and Typhoons are single choices and only the conventional LandSpeeder was squadroned in 1-3 vehicles.
But NOW in the new Codex: Space Marines ALL LandSpeeder variants can be mixed.

So i think the Tempest could be mixed with the other LandSpeeder variants, too.

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Land Speeder Tempests
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:03 am 
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No, in the IA2 entry all land speeder variants can be mixed, except the Tempest, and the Tempest is not available in squadrons at all. (I've got IA2 in front of me)

(Imperial Armour 2 @ page 124)
QUOTE
Fast Attack: ?A squadron of 1-3 Land Speeders (of any type) is a Fast Attack choice for a Space Marine Army.


(Imperial Armour 2 @ page 130)
QUOTE
Fast Attack: ?A Tempest is a Fast Attack choice for a Space Marine Army. ?It may also be taken as a Heavy Support choice for a White Scars army.
SPECIAL RULES
Ravenwing Tempest: ?If the Tempest is included in a Dark Angels army, then it will be part of the Ravenwing, [snip 40k verbage]

Ergo, Tempests should NOT be mixed into Land Speeder formations, but should instead be separate formations.




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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Land Speeder Tempests
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 9:16 am 
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Hmm ok. I have only the IA update from 2002. If in IA 2 all other LandSpeeder variants are included (with TOE) then your're right :)

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CAL001
 Post subject: Land Speeder Tempests
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:26 pm 
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Why FF 5+, why not 4 +. It has all ranged weapon systems with AT and AP values, isn't a normal LS 5+? This thing is a combo of Typhoon and Tornado and would appear to be a better vehicle as the hybrid of the afore mentioned vehicles and warrants an improvement to its FF value. If you intend to cost it a 35/vehicle or 250 + for a formation, it needs to have some extra appeal over taking five by MW 5+ attacks in FF.

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