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Hunters As Upgrade How Many
0-1 39%  39%  [ 9 ]
0-2 61%  61%  [ 14 ]
Total votes : 23

Hunters As Upgrade How Many

 Post subject: Hunters As Upgrade How Many
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:08 pm 
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We have had plenty of discussion on the formation and its pros and cons and we are leaning towards the Upgrade as the solution. So what should it be 0-1 or 0-2. I would also ask what cost should they be? I will be playtesting 0-2 over the coming weeks and will post reports on their progress. But I need advice on costing, no change or up or down a bit and why.

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 Post subject: Hunters As Upgrade How Many
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:19 pm 
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Regardless of points cost and stats, I don't see why Marines wouldn't be tactically flexible enough to concentrate their Hunters if the need arises.

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 Post subject: Hunters As Upgrade How Many
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:22 pm 
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I agree that that is the case and I would be willing to playtest a formation, however the overall concensus in the vote led me away from that point of view. I will see how 0-2 goes and post comment. At a latter stage I might have a crack at the formation.

Cheers and Happy Hunting
CAL


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 Post subject: Hunters As Upgrade How Many
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:03 am 
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I haven't tested formations, but I have tested 0-1 available to most of the formations and it made a tremendous difference.

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 Post subject: Hunters As Upgrade How Many
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:35 am 
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I played 4K last night and use the 0-2 upgrade. I had two Tac dets and a Dev det with two Hunters a piece. As far as I am concerned they performed well in support of the ground units with the At4+. But they still suffered from supression. I had the formations spread on setup with centre left and right. Tac L and R with Dev centre. The Tac R Hunters managed three shots for the game and achieved one kill, a good result for them, however the where easily suppressed as there formation came under fire from multiple units. The Dev centre ended up right to assist after a faile air assault and was usefull in AT firing only. The Tac L was hit by an Arty Coy and was suppressed and only fired during AT shooting. My oponent did say that it dis have a psychological effect on his decission to use his air. It requires more playtesting to come to grips with. Last night is inconclusive as the centre formation was dragged to the L table edge and thus could not support the R side. More to come on this as I give it another go over the coming weeks. I would like to here if anyone else is giving this a crack and what they think of it. Points wise I spent 450 on Hunters and they probaly killed 4 ground stands and the one air mentioned.

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CAL


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 Post subject: Hunters As Upgrade How Many
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:03 am 
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In all honesty, the typical modern deployment of SPAA, like Hunters, Hydras, or Skyrays, is that they're in a platoon or company organizationally (for paperwork and training), but are sent to different platoons or companies for field use.  Although I voted for the 0-1 option, the more useful option is 0-2 (harder to suppress)

I will add that Tau Skyrays are 0-1 additions, while Firestorms are 0-2 replacements.  The replacement is a significant downside to the 50-point Firestorm.

Space Marine Hunter (75 points)
AV, 30cm, 5+sv,  6+cc,  6+ff
Hunter-killer:  60cm AT4+/AA4+
[50% chance to-hit AA)

IG Hydra (50 points)
AV, 30cm, 6+sv, 6+cc, 5+ff
2x Twin Hydra Autocannon:  45cm AP4+/AT5+/AA5+
Heavy Bolter:  30cm AP5+
(55% chance to-hit AA, 44% chance 1 hit, 11% chance 2 hits.)

Eldar Firestorm (50 points)
AV, 35cm, 5+sv, 6+cc, 4+ff
Firestorm Battery:  45cm AP5+/AT5+/AA4+ Pulse
Notes: Skimmer.

(50% chance to-hit AA, 25% for 1 hit, 12.5% for 2 hits, 12.5% for 3 hits)

Tau v4.4 Skyray (75 points)
AV, 30cm, 4+sv, 6+cc, 6+ff
Smart Missile System:  30cm AP4+ Ignore Cover
2x Hunter Missiles:  75cm AA5+
2x Seeker Missiles: 75cm AT6+ Guided Missiles
Notes: Skimmer, Markerlights
[Note that the Smart Missiles will be reduced to 30cm AP5+ Ignore Cover in v4.4.1]

More importantly, is something being done to improve the Hunter's capabilities?  Quite frankly, I'd rather have a Hydra than a Hunter, even if the Hydra didn't have ATSKNF.   So the Hunter has 1/3 greater range.  A Hydra has a slightly better AA hit %, and adds better AP and AT fire than a Predator Destructor.  A Hydra almost has the same AT firepower as a Predator Annihilator (only missing the AT4+).  All this, and I get decent AA firepower?  I'll take 4, please.  So the armor isn't as good.  Keep the Hydra in the middle, so that it's not the closest target (you'd do that with the Hunter anyway).  

At least raise the Hunter to 2x AT5+/AA5+.  That makes it almost the equal of a Pred A in AT fire, and makes it the equal of a Hydra in AA (better, actually, since it has longer range).

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 Post subject: Hunters As Upgrade How Many
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:03 am 
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I am for the 0-2 choice because that makes suppression harder.

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 Post subject: Hunters As Upgrade How Many
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:45 am 
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Watch out for balance issues with Whirlwinds.  Allowing 2 makes it all the more hard for fighter bombers to get them down from that all-important 4bp.

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 Post subject: Hunters As Upgrade How Many
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:23 am 
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For Hena, we are looking at choice, our prefered being 0-2 at the moment. That doesn't mean you have to take two. Choosing to take large marine formations is detrimental to the number of activations a marine player can get. It is up to the individual commander to choose what he wants to take. In this case, Marine players dont have a good choice compared to the original corps armies. So lets look at the choices for the other armies

Guard

Company Formation = 2 x Support Formations = 1 or 2 Hydra Platoons (3 x Hydra)
Comapny Upgrade x 3 = 1 x Flak = 1 x Hydra

Orks

Warband = Any Number of Flakwagons at 35 points
Kult of Speed = Any Number of Flakwagons at 35 points
Blitz Brigade = Any Number of Flakwagons at 35 points
Mekboy Stompamob = Any Number of Flakwagons at 35 points
Kekboy Gunzmob = Any Number of Flakwagons at 35 points

Eldar

Falcon Troupe = Up to two falcons may be replaced with firestorms
Fire Prism Troupe = 3 x Fire Prism

Marines

Devastator = 0-1 Hunter
Tactical = 0-1 Hunter
Whirlwind = 0-1 Hunter

All the other armies seem to have a reasonable choice for AA. There is no fluff to say NO to multiple Hunters, we only presume to think so because there is nothing concrete to go from. I am not for changing stats, it can targets quite well, it just isn't available to enough units in sufficient quantities to remain unsuppressed, and it doesn't come at a reasonable cost.

Marines are the multi purpose combat team driven army. A typical combat team consist of Tanks, Mechanised Infantry, SP Artillery , SP Anti Tank systems and GBAD systems, either mounted or SP. The GBAD taken is usually sufficent to cover the manoeuvre groups as they conduct their operations. One asset is never enough to to a job, so why limit marines as opposed to the other armies?

Cheers
CAL


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 Post subject: Hunters As Upgrade How Many
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:29 am 
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well i like the 0-2 choice option, I can see arguments for both, however i like the option of being able to take a strong anti-air/armour option if needed. I played CAL this week using the 0-2 option and i can say it made a big difference to where i used my air assets. Sure it cost him 450 in points but the 6 hunters across 3 formation made for on hell of an SAM unbrella. In the end i had to use all my arty and long range fire on teh dets to supress them enough to get the air on safely. In the end i was lucky and made some 6+ saves for my flyers but it was obvious that SM formations with 2 hunters are significant threat to airpower.





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 Post subject: Hunters As Upgrade How Many
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:56 pm 
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(Lion in the Stars @ Aug. 10 2006,06:03)
QUOTE
More importantly, is something being done to improve the Hunter's capabilities?  Quite frankly, I'd rather have a Hydra than a Hunter,

This same argument applies to pretty much every IG/SM comparison.  IG units are universally better for similar points on the factors you mentioned because they don't have the inherent SM benefits - not just TSKNF but initiative and strategy ratings also.

At least raise the Hunter to 2x AT5+/AA5+.  That makes it almost the equal of a Pred A in AT fire, and makes it the equal of a Hydra in AA (better, actually, since it has longer range).At least raise the Hunter to 2x AT5+/AA5+.  That makes it almost the equal of a Pred A in AT fire, and makes it the equal of a Hydra in AA (better, actually, since it has longer range).


Have you tested this?  We tested AA3+ (no AT change) with the improved availability (armor formations) for exactly one game.  It resulted in a massively effective AA umbrella.  Despite concerted efforts to suppress or destroy the Hunters they shot down their own point value, plus the impact they had on air assaults via BMs, plus their normal ground fire.  There were 4 of us at that game and the unanimous conclusion with almost no discussion was that it was too powerful.

Increased availability is sufficient to make them significantly more effective.

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 Post subject: Hunters As Upgrade How Many
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:36 am 
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Playtested again last night with 0-2 option. It continues to work as an effective addition to all formations. They killed one of two aircraft and remain a psycological deterent to the use of air. I am unsure of the costing though. 75 points seems a bit to much for these things. ATSKNF does not give you that much when the max unit is two, they are easily suppressed and will only manage 1-2 shots per turn.

Has anyone tried a different costing for these things? I might give them a go at 50 points, at the momnet I am blowing alot of points on Hunters, that could be spent better elsewhere. Any thought or comments, add them in.

Cheers
CAL


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 Post subject: Hunters As Upgrade How Many
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:41 am 
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How about 60.

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