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Land Raiders What are they worth
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=7024		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  CAL001 [ Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:42 am ]
Post subject:  Land Raiders What are they worth
Hi all

We have seen this dicussed here and on the SG boards. I would like to see what the general concensus is on costing of Land Raider Detachments. Along with your vote I would like to see any comment on why they should change or remain the same according to your point of view and experiences against them in the past. This is the first in a series of polls and forum topics about proposed changes to the Marine list and other ideas that have been floated here and on the SG boards. In advance I would like to thank you all for voting and adding comment on any changes in costing.

Cheers
CAL              :)
Author:  CAL001 [ Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Land Raiders What are they worth
A comparison then to get the debate under way. I will compare stats of the LR against those of the Shadowsword, Baneblade and the Leman Russ.

              LR              SS               BB                  LR

Speed    25cm         15cm          15cm              20cm
Armour   4+RA         4+RA          4+RA              4+RA
CC          6+               6+              6+                  6+
FF           5+(?)           5+              4+                  4+
Range   45/30cm    90/30cm    75/45/30cm   75/45/30cm
Stats     AP/AT4+    MW2/AP5   AP4-5/AT4/6    AP/AT4-5
Attacks     3                3                6                     4
Notes   RA/TRA/TPT  DC3/RA     DC3/RA               RA
Cost        100             200           200                  66.6
Form        400             500           500                 200

AT Attk       2                1                4                      2
AP Attk       1                2                4                      2

Form AT      8                3               12                     6
Form AP      4                6               12                     6

LR Advantages

Transpost, Thick Rear Armour, Speed and ATSKNF

LR Disadvantages
Range, Cost and AP attacks

So why, do they cost so much? and what should they cost? Is there scope to change the LR upgrade for Terms and Devs as well? Post a vote, it counts to me, I am interested in what you say.

Cheers
CAL

PS, If you stop by, please take a second to vote, even if it is not up your alley.
Author:  dafrca [ Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Land Raiders What are they worth
On of my worries regarding the adjustment of points on a "one unit at a time" basis is that as each is readjusted, the balance only lasts until another unit is adjusted.

I saw this with the IG. First people wanted to adjust the Deathstrikes. So they did. Then the Russ seemed too strong, so they adjusted it. Then the troops seemed to cost too little compaired to the russ. It just kept going. Within a month the ratio of points were back to almost the same place with the overall army costing more.

I think it is better if the army as a whole is looked at. The real question may not be if the LR is priced wrong, it might be that other units are and thus they make the LR look off.

Just my .02

dafrca
Author:  CAL001 [ Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Land Raiders What are they worth
I will be looking at all of the Marine armour as I make my way through this process, to see if they are costed correctly. I think that the majority of the Inf formations are well costed ballanced against their armour. The only one that has rated a mention is Terminator pricing. This is preliminary work to get a feel of peoples thoughts and a platform to go forward from.

Cheers
CAL
Author:  CAL001 [ Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Land Raiders What are they worth
Any comments to go with your votes gang. I am keen to hear your opinion on why 350 and not 375.

Cheers
CAL
Author:  Morg [ Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Land Raiders What are they worth
Where should I begin? Maybe begin with why I didn't like to take Land Raiders in vanilla E:A.
- They are expensive and I think twice about putting that many eggs in one basket
- They lack numbers and the possibility to improve numbers
- Transport is useless - why take Land Raiders when I can get Rhinos for no additional cost?

I am also starting to see ATSKNF as a disadvantage for low number formations, especially for the Land Raiders.
Author:  Ilushia [ Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Land Raiders What are they worth
ATSKNF isn't really an advantage, it makes up for the  Marine's major shortcoming: Size. I think the small size of units should basically cancel-out the advantage of ATSKNF for a number of formations (Land Raiders and Predators come to mind, as do Whirlwinds). 4 Land Raiders is easier to break then 8 Storm Troopers and 4 Valkyries for instance. Even accounting for the Reinforced Armor on a Raider. Why do I say that? Because each Raider killed lowers the total 'to break' number by 2 instead of 1. So at start it takes 8 to break them. After one kill they're at 6. Two kills they're at 4. Breaking them in one turn actually isn't hard, especially with the number of MW and TK weapons floating about now. An Ork unit with 3 Suppa Zzap Gunz can almost always break a unit of Raiders in a single firing. Heck, even with only 2 gunz they can do it... And the 'uge Blitz Brigade in question only costs 500 points. 100 more then Raiders do. For vastly better fire-power AND more ability to resist BMs. IG for 650 points get 10 Leman Russ. Which are almost guranteed to take out at least one Land Raider from 75cm away. Far enough the Raiders have to double-move to get inside range. And only have a 50% chance to take out any Leman Russ at all! Sure they're 250 points more expensive to field, but they essentially completely destroy a unit of Land Raiders without losing any major casualties at all (First shooting kills 1 Raider, suppresses 1. Marines counter-firing on them has about a 33% chance to kill one of them as a result. They sustain-fire on the Raiders on turn 2 and should demolish 2 Raiders and have an EXTREMELY good chance to wipe the 3rd without taking any casualties at all! Yes, they're more then 50% more expensive, but even so they should take at least a FEW casualties trying to do that.)

As it stands the Land Raider is simply more expensive then it's worth. I'd say the same about Predators in general too. They cost a lot, but due to their small size they're easy to suppress/break. Even with ATSKNF which only really makes up for that small-size problem about 75% of the way. I think that for several formations (particularly those with less then 6 total units in them) that their price should be determined by their stat-lines not by a bonus for ATSKNF which simply isn't good enough to be worth it. I'd move Land Raiders to 375 or maybe even 350 for 4. Possibly allow them and Predators to buy 2 more of themselves to reinforce their numbers instead of reducing the base cost. But at a lower cost for the size-upgrades. So a unit of Land Raiders for 400 could buy 2 more Raiders for 75 each. 550 gets you 6 Land Raiders. That I'd be willing to pay.
Author:  dafrca [ Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Land Raiders What are they worth

(Ilushia @ Jul. 29 2006,07:04)
QUOTE
550 gets you 6 Land Raiders. That I'd be willing to pay.

Not that I disagree with you 100%, but even 6 for 550 feels over priced.  ???

But at least it is better then without the added two Landraiders.

dafrca
Author:  CAL001 [ Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Land Raiders What are they worth
I agree with Ilushia 100% on this one, without the luck of the dice, you will most certainly get you but wooped by Russ companies and super heavy companies. I also like the idea of adding an extra two LR to the formation and will start a new thread on the costing of the LR upgrade. I am sure people are interested inthie with regard to Devs, Terms and the LR det itself. 100 points per model is way over the top, compare it to a silver tower, 90 points, four attacks 3 x AT 4 + 1 x MW5 Invulnerable Save, Feraless. We are being ripped off big time.

Cheers
CAL
Author:  Ilushia [ Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Land Raiders What are they worth
I wouldn't count the Silver Towers or those in the other experimental lists against the Land Raider. But the stats of them compared to the OFFICIAL lists is too weak as well. The IG Baneblades are better then they are per-point-value, and Baneblades are generally considered under-powered for their price! The baneblades cost 100 more points and compare their stats:

4 Units, 4+ RA, TRA, 8x 45cm AT 4+, 4x 30cm AP 4+, 2 BP to suppress, 8BP to break

9 DC, 4+ RA, 3x 75cm 4+/4+, 3x 45cm 5+/6+, 3x 30cm 3+/4+ Ignore Cover, 3x 30cm AP 5+, 6x 45cm AT 5+. 3 BP to Suppress, 9 BP to break.

100 points gets you vastly superior fire-volume and comperably good fire-power. Longer range, tougher to kill, tougher to suppress, tougher to break formation which will beat Land Raiders senseless. The only good thing the LRs have is faster move-speed. Which is nice, but rarely enough to make up for their shortcomings in such an engagement! 6 LRs would be much more reasonable at 500 points:

6 Units, 4+ RA, TRA, 12x 45cm AT 4+, 6x 45cm AP 4+. 2 BP to suppress, 12 BP to break.

At that point I might be willing to consider them on-par with the Baneblade for their points-costs... Maybe. But even so most people consider the Baneblades to be horribly weak compared to the other choices available for 500 points (like the Shadowswords). Oh. And baneblades FF better and can't be trapped in melee as easily.
Author:  CAL001 [ Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Land Raiders What are they worth
I added the tower comment as nearly every time they turn up my LR vannish on mass well out side of their own engagement range. So would you say that six should become the base line formation siz for LR? I can see this causing a stir with the crowd.

Cheers
CAL
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Land Raiders What are they worth
6 wouldn't make sense as the baseline formation, if only for the fact that LR's blisters come with sets of 4.
Author:  CAL001 [ Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Land Raiders What are they worth
I like four with the chance to upgrade as an option, but what is the upgrade worth?

Cheers
CAL
Author:  dafrca [ Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Land Raiders What are they worth

(CAL001 @ Jul. 29 2006,14:41)
QUOTE
I like four with the chance to upgrade as an option, but what is the upgrade worth?

Cheers
CAL

I would lower the basic formation and have the upgrade cost closer to the cost per mini of the basic formation then have the basic formation cost a lot and the upgrade be real cheep.

Did that come out right?

I think it did.  :p

dafrca
Author:  CAL001 [ Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Land Raiders What are they worth
So a formation at 350 your looking at 85-90 per LR and at 375 90 - 95 per LR. I would think that a LR is worth about 85/model when compared to other tanks in EA. Any comments?

CAL
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