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Marine Suggestions
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=6744		 Page 1 of 7
Author:  Ilushia [ Mon May 08, 2006 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Marine Suggestions
Hi out there...

I've been around reading the boards the last few weeks, as well as the SG boards and hanging out at my local game store at times... From what I've gathered of the Space Marines in Epic they're rather... Well, honestly they're kinda less then impressive. Personally I love the Space Marines in basic 40K, so I've compiled my thoughts here on the subject of what could, maybe, be done to fix them. I'm sure a lot of you out there will think I've got some really horrible and unbalanced ideas, and you might well be right! I've not played much in the way of Epic, but I've watched a fair number of games as well as the stuff on here... Anyway, on to the list of complaints and potential answers.

#1: Tanks too weak.

This one I couldn't agree more with. Compare the Land Raider to the Leman Russ, for instance. The Land Raider will run you 100 points a model, while the Russ will run you only 65 points in a Platoon or around 66-67 in an upgrade. What does the Land Raider actually have that the Leman Russ doesn't? Transport capacity, good. Thick Rear Armor, nice but not useful that often. Higher speed, good but offset by lower weapon-ranges. The ATSKNF rule only enters into it mildly since the greater number of Russes will still require you to give them more blast markers to have the same effect (Comparatively firing on the Land Raiders with two formations and killing one each formation will  break them. All it will do to the Russ Platoon is reduce them to 4 tanks which can shoot). In any case, I'd suggest moving the Land Raiders down to 300 per 4 of them in a unit, this'll cost you 75 each a much more competative price IMHO. For the actual upgrade leave them alone, the transport capacity is what you're really paying for here.

Predators: The Predators feel fairly good to me, 4+ armor save, high speed, reasonable range. The only complaint I can think of is that they're not very large unit-size-wise. Which may be in character to the Marines, but it leads to quickly depleated numbers and thus a non-usable unit. My suggestion would be up them from 4 to a squad up to 6 to a squad, same price. Perhaps allow some formations to take a Predator upgrade to add 1 or 2 Predators to the group, not sure about that one.

Vindicator: I'm really not sure what to suggest for this one other then what most others have: Up it's speed to 25cm so it's more useful as part of a fast-moving unit.

Whirlwinds: THese actually feel OK, as far as I'm concerned. They're not fielded in large enough groups to wipe entire formations, but they're nice. Might suggest upping their range, but that may well make them too good so leave them alone for now (I haven't heard many complaints on them really)

Hunters: These things feel fine to me as well. If anything they feel about right, not spectacular but useful. Good backup against tanks and a little extra air cover.

#2: Anti-Aircraft.

Marines, as it stands, seem to have real trouble with aircraft. They can bring Lightnings, but they easily get shot down by enemy flak, and enemy aircraft. My solution's fairly simple, let the Thunderhawk become a Fighter-Bomber, allowing it to do CAP and Intercept missions. Might make it too good, I'm not sure, but it feels right. It's the Space Marine's primary aircraft, after all, and while they won't field as many as they could of Lightnings it'd be a nice change, and give it a use beyond 'air-drop cavalry'.

#3: ATSKNF

I like this rule, over all. And I think the suggestions made here are about right. I like the idea that Marines don't suffer for being Outnumbered unless outnumbered at least 2 to 1, that feels right. They're the most tenacious and dangerous fighters in the Imperium. They almost always face larger enemy forces. They shouldn't get scared just because they're outnumbered two to one, especially given their small formation sizes. I really like the other ideas out there, as well, Blast Markers counting as half as many in the assault and Leaders removing two blast markers instead of one.

Anyway, just a few suggestions from someone who's relatively new, and probably totally wrong. Commence the cries of anger and disgust!  :;):
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Mon May 08, 2006 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Marine Suggestions
You have to remember that marine tanks can air assault, something to factor in.

But otherwise I think both Land Raider and AP version pred should get FF 4+, both preds and LR should get a 25 point discount and the LR should be able to take the Land Raider upgrade.

Thunderhawk - I was testing to see how a version that swapped transport capacity for Fighter bomber status worked. It worth some more trials, but I think is too good at 200 points.
Author:  Ilushia [ Mon May 08, 2006 5:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Marine Suggestions
I'm aware that Space Marine tanks can air-assault with Landing Craft, in fact it's a rather amusing tactic to me. But as it stands it just feels like they're too flimsy and cost far too much. While there's no doubt you can drop four Land Raiders on someone using the Landing Craft, that ability is paid for in the cost of the Landing Craft, not the Land Raiders. Or at least it should be! If you're paying for an ability you're not allowed to use unless you pay MORE for another thing, then you're getting seriously ripped off. It's rather like selling someone a computer without a hard-drive  :;): I think they probably should get a fire-fight increase as well. The idea was to bring the Land Raider back into point-cost alignment with the rest. Frankly I don't think a 25 point decrease in price on a Land Raider formation is significant enough. That's still over 90 points each for vehicles only mildly better then Leman Russ, if they really are (I'm kindof in contention over this one with some of my friends).

On the Thunderhawk: I kinda had a feeling that might be the case. Maybe as an upgrade? Costs you +50 or +100 points, lets it be a fighter-bomber, replaces the Battle Cannon with say Missile Pods which are AP5+/AA5+ and 30cm range. Might be too close to the basic Imperial Interceptors, but it's a start, maybe?
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Mon May 08, 2006 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Marine Suggestions
The thunderhawk doesn't need more AA guns to be an interceptor :)

Air assaults aren't a linear increase in effectiveness. A landing craft packed with preds and other shooty troops can land and fire (not assault) anywhere on the table. Saying that many reckon the landing craft is underpointed anyway :)
Author:  nealhunt [ Mon May 08, 2006 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Marine Suggestions
Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 08 May 2006 (17:37))
Saying that many reckon the landing craft is underpointed anyway :)

I certainly think so and have made the case since before publication.
Author:  Ilushia [ Mon May 08, 2006 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Marine Suggestions
As far as the Landing Craft goes. That one I don't know much about. I never gave it serious thought that it might be under priced (though it most likely is, especially compared to the Thunder Hawk). On the terms of Air Assault, part of why I was suggesting dropping back the price of Land Raiders instead of including more, and the opposite for Predators, is the limits on the Landing Craft. The Landing Craft can carry up to six Predators. Now, I suppose you could take four and some upgrades to fill out the extra slots on it's transport capacity, but I dunno. It just doesn't feel quite right to me. Maybe it's just me and all. As I pointed out above, I'm rather new to all this, so take any suggestions I've got with that understanding. I had an idea for larger-scale spacecraft as well, though I don't think it'd significantly impact the battlefield and their use, other then to maybe make them slightly less useless. I'll post that one if anyone wants it. But it's probably not worth considering (I think someone else may have already suggested it, but I can't find the thread).
Author:  Honda [ Wed May 10, 2006 8:40 am ]
Post subject:  Marine Suggestions

..., both preds and LR should get a 25 point discount and the LR should be able to take the Land Raider upgrade.


I'm not singling out TRC for this comment because I've heard it before and I really question what dropping the cost of the formation 25 points is going to buy you?

The first time I heard the proposal I thought, "well, that's nice", but in the long run a very cosmetic change. After all, if you build out a 2700 point list containing a LR formation, what will dropping the LR cost by 25 points get you? Not much more than a 2675 point list.

Ok, so what can you do with the 25 points? Buy a sniper? Only if you have scouts that don't already have them.

So, then when you look at what seems to be holding the SM's back a lot of the time (my impressions from beating on them regularly), is that they start fading or not being able to take objectives in Turn 3-4 because they are short anywhere from 1-4 units.

Given that (and again, these are just my observations), cost reduction really isn't going to get them what they need. I think slight boosts to their existing effectivness is a more productive path.

And the answer to the unasked question is, "Yes, I am building a SM army".

My current list is built around an Alpha Strike approach for character and roughly looks like:

1 x Strike Cruiser
2 x Tactical squads in Drop Pods
1 x Scout squad in Drop Pod
2 x Thunderhawks
2 x Assault squads (in Thawk)
2 x Devastator squads (in Thawk)
2 x Terminator squads

2-3 Characters sprinkled around.

I know that there are lots of different ways to configure the SM's, but it seems to me that at the very least, given the expectations of what the fluff says they ought to do, that list should be fairly effective.

I'm not saying that the list needs to be tuned to only support the Alpha Strike version, but it seems like it ought to be a viable option if chosen.

Something I have wondered about is the cost of Dreadnoughts. Do people think that they are worth 50 pts? I have flipped them in and out of drop pod force and like them for the additional MW attack, but until I have more experience in fielding them, my initial impression is that they are a little high.

Thoughts?
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed May 10, 2006 10:08 am ]
Post subject:  Marine Suggestions
I used to think -50, but now I reckon -25 and FF4+ and the ability to buy Land Raiders as upgrades. Yes its a minor tweak, but when do you say a price drop is worth it? If it were 50 points it isn't that different from 25 at 3000 points.

Overall I would want to be able to field a formation of 8 Raiders that were the match for another races armour company. What points should that be?
Author:  Ilushia [ Wed May 10, 2006 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Marine Suggestions
On Land Raiders: As far as I can tell these guys really should be in the 70-85 points area, when fielded alone. They're not much better then Leman Russ individually, they may actually be worse, the major advantages they have is Thick Rear Armor (Doesn't get used that often IMHO), better Initiative (which is great) and ATSKNF. The ATSKNF rule just cancels out their own small deatchment size. So that more or less takes care of itself. The better initiative should cost them. And the thick rear armor should too. They have shorter range weapons then most other races though, especially the IG and their Battle Cannons. While air-drop takes care of a lot of this, I'd rather like to see Marines able to do things other ways. That's why I suggested dropping back to 300 for 4 Land Raiders. That's 100 points cheaper, meaning you can field 8 Raiders for the cost of 10 Leman Russ (one Russ Company) and be fairly sure you'll give as good as you get from that company more often then not.
Author:  nealhunt [ Wed May 10, 2006 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Marine Suggestions
The first time I heard the proposal I thought, "well, that's nice", but in the long run a very cosmetic change. After all, if you build out a 2700 point list containing a LR formation, what will dropping the LR cost by 25 points get you? Not much more than a 2675 point list.


The flip side of that is, if you only have one armor formation, how much "penalty" is it at the current point cost?  Not much there, either, so why adjust it at all?

This argument is not based on the value of the unit, but on the assumption that SM armor will always be a small portion of the force org.  That is usually the case now because of a perception that they are too expensive but you can't make the assumption that it will stay that way.

25 points is almost a 10% drop in the price of a Predator formation.  That's a substantial adjustment.  If you wanted to play an armor-heavy SM force, it adds up.

Also, the same "how much difference does it make" argument can be made with any list that is down to fine tuning.  It's small increments at this point because it's darn close already.  Despite the derogatory remarks about SM armor by regular posters to both boards, I see a remarkable number of armor formations in both batreps and in tournament descriptions.  That makes me think that it can't be too far off.

==

IlushiaOn Land Raiders: As far as I can tell these guys really should be in the 70-85 points area, when fielded alone.

A 375 point formation is not too far from that.  I think a better comparions than  Leman Russ, because it is more direct, would be LRs in the Chaos lists.  They are quite a good unit at 75 points each.  The SM version gains ATSKNF which is a substantial boost.  Based on that they should be a nice step up from the 75 points.

===

On changing the stats of Preds/LRs:  Keep in mind that these units also appear in the Black Legion list.  There is no real justification for them to have different stats in different lists.  I think a stat change should be used only as a last resort and probably not until after their role in the CSM lists have been evaluated.
Author:  Ilushia [ Wed May 10, 2006 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Marine Suggestions
On the Land Raider: Really it just feels like you shouldn't have to pay for an ability you can't use. Specifically the transport capacity. I don't know, do people think the Land Raider upgrade is reasonably priced? Too expensive? Not expensive enough? Everything I hear seems to be 'Land raiders cost too much and don't do enough!' when they're fielded as a separate unit. Maybe it's just people not knowing how to use them (that's definitely likely in places!) but I figured it was worth a suggestion at least.
Author:  Honda [ Wed May 10, 2006 6:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Marine Suggestions

The flip side of that is, if you only have one armor formation, how much "penalty" is it at the current point cost?  Not much there, either, so why adjust it at all?


I agree with you. My only point in bringing that up, is that unless you are able to buy something substantive with the extra points, thenas you said, "why bother".

That's why I said:


I think slight boosts to their existing effectivness is a more productive path.


I hadn't considered what you mentioned regarding the CSM version and that is an important point to keep in mind as well.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed May 10, 2006 6:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Marine Suggestions
Does anyone use them much in the chaos list?
The FF adjustment LR wise means on averge 2 hits instead of 1 1/3. And they are a different unit in the chaos list, lacking a boring machine spirit for a nastyier one I'm sure. Perhaps it can't shoot as straight :)

Still sucks to be out shot by a russ (or a defilier, but hey a defilier has on average 1 1/3 hits all by itself, equal to 4 land raiders - yes I was always baffled by their stats).
Author:  nealhunt [ Wed May 10, 2006 7:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Marine Suggestions
I use them in my chaos lists.  6 LRs is standard fire support for my Slaanesh cult Black Legion army (4 if I'm short on points).

Fuseboy's description of his SM v BL fight at Oakville also included a formation of chaos LRs.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed May 10, 2006 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Marine Suggestions
Why not defiliers instead of Land Raiders? Cost the same and far more heavily armed for support (though I guess you have to pay for their 200 point predator escort).
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