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BATREP: SM vs. Eldar 1.7 Saim Hann

 Post subject: BATREP: SM vs. Eldar 1.7 Saim Hann
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:01 pm 
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Flimsy Fruit Fermenters and Fungus Fanciers Union, Local #303, Craftworld Gallo fight
Emperors' Customs and Immigration Agents



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Derek Mauve, Emperors' News Service



Full details in following post





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 Post subject: BATREP: SM vs. Eldar 1.7 Saim Hann
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:24 pm 
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I see the Mon-Keigh have been active again.  Really can't the animal control officers do something about this? Ah here they come now.

Sam Hain rules being tested were:

Initiative 2 for all units except aspects and titans.
WINDRIDER WARHOST: 225 points
A Windrider Warhost consists of one Wild Riders unit and five Jetbike units. Any number of Jetbike units in the formation may be replaced with Vypers at no additional points cost.
In addition the formation may include:
3 Jetbike units for +100 points or 6 Jetbike units for +200 points
3 Shining Spears units for +100 points
1 Farseer on Jetbike unit for +50 points
0-1 autarch for +75 in a shining spears unit.
Other units as tweeked as BT changes.
Draft BT changes
Special Rules
1) All pulse becomes 2x shot weapons
2) Spirit Stones dropped

4) Swords of Vaul: 5-6 grav tanks; Falcons for 50
points, Fire Prisms for 75 points, 0-2 Falcons may
be replaced by Fire Storms
1) Jetbikes 5+ save
5) Fire Prism's Prism Cannon goes to 60cm
AP4+/AT2+ Lance


Let the batrep commence.

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 Post subject: BATREP: SM vs. Eldar 1.7 Saim Hann
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:42 pm 
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Flimsy Fruit Fermenters and Fungus Fanciers Union, Local #303, Craftworld Gallo fight
Emperors' Customs and Immigration Agents

By

Derek Mauve, Emperors' News Service


Yesterday, the Fruit Fermenters and Fungus Fanciers Local Union #303 (4F-#303) engaged in a heated exchange with Customs and Immigration Agents (CIA) over illegally imported biological products.

The initial investigatory discussions quickly turned to violence while the CIA initiated
a quarantine of the contraband items on sale at a local foodstuffs exchange. Several fatalities were administered by various members of an attached Astartes contingent that was escorting high ranking Legatum officials. The Emperors Legatum were present to ensure that due process was administered in an equitable manner. Representatives of the Astartes legion could not be reached.

Legal representatives for 4F-#303, Blande Merlot and Phil Guyere, were imprisoned for an indeterminant time until the legal ramifications of unlimited corkage fees could be
assessed.

The impromptu civil disobedience demonstration was dispersed with minimal impact to
local businesses and infrastructure. Approximately 7,000 casualties were catalogued.


SM Order of Battle, 3000 pts
----------------------------

1 x Landing Craft
1 x Tac, 6 x Razorbacks, 2 x Dreads
2 x Terminators
1 x Strike Cruiser
2 x Tacticals
1 x Scouts, 1 x Sniper
1 x Supreme Commander
1 x Devastator
1 x Captain
1 x Librarian


Additional Rules used:

All experimental rules (including MW Barrage as AP).
Marine changes:
1) Armor Detachments (-25 points)
- Vindicator det, 275
- Predator det, 275
- Land Raider det 375

2) Speed upgrades (+5cm)
- Vindicator, 25cm
- Attack Bike, 35cm

3) FF upgrades (1 better)
- Land Raiders, FF4+
- Predators, FF4+

4) Armors get Hunters
- Vindicator det, hunter upgrade allowed
- Predator det, hunter upgrade allowed
- Land Raider det, hunter upgrade allowed

5) "And They Shall Know No Fear" modifications
- No bonuses for enemy having more units (normal +1 for double the amount)
- For counting the assault resolution, the amount of BM is halved (round down)
- Leaders remove 2BM instead of


Craftworld Gallo, Sotec 1.7 + Saim Hann Additions
----------------

SOV (6) 4 falcons, 2 fireprisms ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
SOV (6) 4 fireprisms, 2 firestorms ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
12 jetbikes w. farseer +wild riders ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
5 vipers/jetbikes with farseer ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
8 vipers/jetbikes with farseer ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
8 vipers/jetbikes with farseer ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
guardians, wave serpents ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
guardians, wave serpents ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
guardians, wave serpents ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
guardians, wave serpents ?


Initiative 2 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
WINDRIDER WARHOST: 225 points ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
A Windrider Warhost consists of one Wild Riders unit and five Jetbike units. Any number of Jetbike units in the formation may be replaced with Vypers at no additional points cost. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
In addition the formation may include: ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
3 Jetbike units for +100 points or 6 Jetbike units for +200 points ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
3 Shining Spears units for +100 points ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
1 Farseer on Jetbike unit for +50 points ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
0-1 autarch for +75 in a shining spears unit. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
Other units as tweeked as BT changes. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
Draft BT changes ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
Special Rules ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
1) All pulse becomes 2x shot weapons ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
2) Spirit Stones dropped ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
4) Swords of Vaul: 5-6 grav tanks; Falcons for 50 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
points, Fire Prisms for 75 points, 0-2 Falcons may ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
be replaced by Fire Storms ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
1) Jetbikes 5+ save ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
5) Fire Prism's Prism Cannon goes to 60cm ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
AP4+/AT2+ Lance ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

The table was covered with rolling forested hills, around 40% table coverage. John had three large terrain features to position himself behind. His Blitz objective was mid table, with the rest of the objectives clustered around the center of the table and in the middle third of both x and y axis. I?d tell you what my half of the board looked like, but since I spent the entire game in John?s half of the board, I?m not sure I ever noticed. :p

Turn 1

In the beginning there was light. And the light didst rain down from the heavens onto the earth upon the wicked sons and daughters of wine samplers and cheese partakers. And the light was glorious and there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth as a great confusion was visited upon the gathered forces of the unclean.

And the Lord of the Triarch saw that this was good.

Next didst the holy servants of the Triarch descend upon the unclean purveyors of fermented foodstuffs and didst rain upon them holy fire and, lo the unclean were cleansed.

And the Lord of the Triarch saw that this was good.

So great was the confusion among the unclean, that many did stand about, unable to give forth battle and though great were their number, the holy servants were righteous in their fury and did slay many.

And the Lord of the Triarch saw that this was good.

Then didst the Leviathan descend from the heavens and disgorge more holy servants of the Triarch from its bowels. And the holy servants didst behold a pitiful wailing come forth from the unclean and though many martyrs were delivered on that day, the unclean were banished from the holy land and there was much rejoicing.

And the Lord of the Triarch saw that this was good.

However, the wicked were not all confused and many did gather upon the children of the Leviathan and though the holy servants didst remain faithful, many more martyrs were released of their burdens and taken up.

And it came to pass, that a pause lay heavily upon the holy fields of retribution.

Turn Summary:

As is usual for the Space Marines, things started off with a bang. My orbital bombardment managed to clip several Saim Hann units and although I would have liked to have caused more casualties, I at least was able to place a fairly decent number of blast markers on several units. Later on in the turn, this would have a severe impact on John?s mobility.

The Drop pods landed just in front of the SH Blitz objective and in close proximity of a Vyper unit. A combined assault by drop pod units wiped out the Vyper squad. The scout squad consolidated on the Blitz objective and then took shots at another Vyper squad, putting a nice grouping on the Farseers? forehead and dropping another bike unit in the formation.

John was plagued with blown activation rolls. Some of this was assisted by the additional -1 from the blast markers placed by the orbital bombardment, other times because it?s hard to recover from a one. So he struggled to keep things going given that at least his first six activations failed.

The Space Marines didn?t have that problem. Next I brought in my Landing Craft to bushwhack a Guardian host and was reasonably successful in that action, but what I also ended up doing is placing my BTS unit in reach of multiple jet bike units, who consequently wiped all the infantry out.

So the turn ended with both of us almost gasping for breath because of the rather intense turn of events.


Turn 2

And the trumpets didst sound, the angels sang out and the servants of the most holy Lord of the Triarch were restored. The unclean had gathered their multitudes in the distance, their leaders unaware that judgment had been passed, their fates sealed.

Confusion continued to reign in the ranks of the unclean. However, pursuit by the unclean of the children of the Leviathan continued and in the end, despite their unyielding faith, all became martyrs. However, retribution for this atrocity was swift as Leviathan rushed from the skies to swoop down upon a fleeing band of stragglers, crushing their feeble attempt to escape.

Near the unholy shrine of the unclean, swift saints invested the site with holy unguents and seals of purity to prevent the return of the unsanctified. The rest of the unclean multitude slowly migrated to the center of the battlefield as the fading light brought an end to the conflict.

Turn Summary:

Well, the SHE finally got untracked and began to mobilize their forces in the manner that I am normally accustomed to. The vehicles from the Landing Craft assault force were completely wiped out, thus losing my BTS objective to the pointy eared fiends. In the center, a stalemate developed as we were running out of store time and so played the second turn as if it were the third. I managed to wipe out another Guardian host and damage another whose surviving Wave Serpent was pounced upon by the Landing Craft in an air assault and completely destroyed.

We totaled up the points and the SHE had 3 to the SM 2. A pretty decent result.


Game Summary

[I]
A very interesting and intense game. As usual, the SM?s come in swinging and it?s a question of whether or not they can hang on in the face of a determined counter-attack. This game was the first time that John has had to think hard about his options and execute properly. I see this as a good thing in the Eldar as in previous games, I was usually dismembered by the end of T2 and the game really ended up being an exercise of seeing how bad the objective grab in T3 would be.

In this game, the SM hung in there a lot better and I felt like I had a pretty decent force going into T3 should we have done so. I still think that it would have been a tough contest as the SM would have needed to push the SHE off of some objectives to get a good margin on the objectives.

All in all an excellent time.

Good game John!
John?s comments:
Good game. ?Next time when my super tanks prisms fire on your termies you're going down buddy !!! :)
-Note in your batrep it is the opinion of moi that, unlike previous fades you would have continued to be strong in the following turn, but if any formation stuck out, the bikes would have hit them with a vengeance heh heh heh.
Impacts. Init 2 is not bad, whats bad is no spirit stones at the same time. ?
Your movement from the lander formation to take on the one yet almost worked perfectly (hence my bugging about can all those units move). You missed by a hair getting them out of the range of all the FF support and turned the trap against me even worse than what happened.
I like the rhino support. ?Those dreads might have slowed you down (if they were dreads and not commanders heh heh) subsequently. ?Interesting idea to drop a mobile force.

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 Post subject: BATREP: SM vs. Eldar 1.7 Saim Hann
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:06 am 
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 Post subject: BATREP: SM vs. Eldar 1.7 Saim Hann
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:27 pm 
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The airdropped formation and lander did especially well.  When that dropped within striking distance of most of my surviving formations I saw a major opportunity for carnage, as the center force was too tough to crack  - I would have been immediately wiped out.  However, the size of the formation, bulked with FFing razorbacks made them an unexpectedly tough nut as well,  that jumped up and bit my assaulting units in the face.  It took three massed formations to bring them down, the majority of my remaining force.

We theorized that landing a mobile of such size should be explored further as its strong enough to hold its own.  The lander can then continue havoc and then go for an objective at the end, or ferry additional troops from the main host.

The only real weakness was lack of aniaircraft, which could be a real detriment depending on opponent.

Unless of course they keep getting hit by firestorms :)

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 Post subject: BATREP: SM vs. Eldar 1.7 Saim Hann
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:43 pm 
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5) "And They Shall Know No Fear"
- Number of BMs in assault resolution is halved (round down)
- Leaders remove 2BMs instead of 1


Hena, I have played with the above variation and stopped using the first bullet item after about a half dozen games because it doesn't address what I consider is one of the major issues that needs to be addressed...that being late 2nd/3rd turn wilt. In my games, I observed that the SM "seemed" to end up 1-2 units short of being effective through the back half of a game. Consistently. So, through various discussions both online and off, some with ERC members and opponents of SM, the general consensus that we arrived at was that something was needed to make units more effective at the things SM do best. I didn't really know what that might be until you posted your recommendation.

I say that because, that even with fairly decent FF/CC values, the SM's struggle to win an assault. Again these are my observations, yours may be different.

Providing a lessening effect AFTER an assault resolution assumes that the SM's are going to win. The real issue is addressing the weakness before it occurs. Again that has not been my experience. This occurs due to the smaller sizes of the SM formations, the fact that they don't generally have as great an access to MW CC upgrades or the numbers to compensate for any losses. I'm not suggesting that any of those change because I think the flavor of the SM list is spot on, but given those observations, then they need an effectiveness boost that goes beyond taking off 25 points here and there on vehicles.

Just for the record, although I'm not against the other changes (cost reductions, extra Hunters, etc.), I don't think that those changes will materially affect how the SM play as the reductions are not significant enough to place additional units on the table. Again, JMO.

So from my experiences, something else has been needed to make the individual formations better able to take on large formations of Orks, IG, Eldar Guardians and Bikes. Causing the other formations to have to greatly outnumber the SM formations has been one of the most effective ways to accomplish this because reducing costs to the point where the SM could add another formation or two isn't a viable option.

I have not tested these changes against Tyranids or Chaos, LatD, Necrons or Tau yet. However, my gut feeling is that they only allow the SM to stay close to these lists not dominate them in assaults, Tau to be excluded.

So, I hear what you are saying, but I think your initial approach was the correct solution to the problem. Also I thought that Chroma was in favor of the "greatly outnumbered" option, but was testing the other choice for completeness sake. However, I would expect him to state his own opinion rather than me give it second hand.





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 Post subject: BATREP: SM vs. Eldar 1.7 Saim Hann
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:33 pm 
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(Honda @ Sep. 29 2006,13:43)
QUOTE
So, I hear what you are saying, but I think your initial approach was the correct solution to the problem. Also I thought that Chroma was in favor of the "greatly outnumbered" option, but was testing the other choice for completeness sake. However, I would expect him to state his own opinion rather than me give it second hand.

Hello!

Yes, I'm greatly in favour of the the "only greatly outnumbered" option, that Space Marines never suffer from "just" being outnumbered.  I've played the "half BMs before assault" option and it just didn't seem to have that much of an effect on play.

My support for that idea is two-fold: 1) It just *feels* right.  Marines don't care if the enemy has a few more guys than them, they still kick their butts.  *laugh*  2) It plays very easily and effectively.

Taking this, and the point value changes, into account in recent Space Marine involved games has breathed new life into Space Marine play in our local group.  Marines are now *challenging* to play against *without* having to always resort to being a "drop army" style list.  All our local Marine players seem more than pleased with the proposed changes.

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 Post subject: BATREP: SM vs. Eldar 1.7 Saim Hann
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:07 pm 
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He does prefer it and I though I put that in explicitly. If it didn't come out like that, then I didn't write it properly.


My fault then, I probably read your response too quickly.

In any case, I agree that having both might be OTT, however if I could generalize what I've observed between the two options:

1. The "greatly outnumbered" option tends to leave larger SM formations around for later in the game, thus keeping the entire force more effective through the latter stages of the game

2. The other option leaves smaller formations with less BM which doesn't postpone the 3rd turn wilt.

Because the SM formations need to work more closely with each other to time their attacks, then reducing the effectiveness of just a couple formations really starts to hamstring the force as a whole. Again, just based on my observations in my games and watching others play SM.

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