The Black Legion list has been revised. Several years ago the feral titan, obliterator and plague bearer were nerfed. More recently the structure of the list was altered to cut the number of fearless WEs.
The stats you have quoted include all the data generated before these changes. After these changes I'd say, and this sis supported by results, that BL are a solid mid tier list

_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

I like the SM list but find it very one dimensional, ie air assault.
Well executed it has a very good chance of winning.
Yes there is some variety in how you execute your air assault but ultimately this is the strategy that a SM player will employ to win the majority of the time currently. I find with IG, Ork and Eldar lists, all have much more variety in strategy, army composition and ways to win.

Yes, there has been power creep in general since the core lists were published. This is not necessarily bad, just that if we acknowledge that things have changed since the original lists were created, then it should warrant a review of those lists to update them to the times.

My opinion is that a tweak of SM army with an eye on improving it's ability to field a ground pounder list (ie a focus on infantry and tanks with no special focus on air assault) is warrented. How I would see that done is via some strategic point drops in armored vehicles and a sneaky tweak to formation upgrades that make them very cost effective (taking the cost effective upgrade sacrifices activations for better armored vehicle formations). This would promote the use of armored vehicles and larger ground based formations which could create a competitive alternative to the air assault paradigm and an alternative way of playing marines. (ie more whirlwinds, predators and landraiders fielded). Just my opinion and to help SM players get more out of there existing armies and toys.

Regarding: "being able to land in multiple ZoC to engage"
does need an official ruling, if for no other reason then to create a baseline and point of reference. It has specific and serious consequences to any air assault list and should be addressed clearly before someone designes there list and enters a tournament/plays a game. It should not be left to self interpretation before a game.

Regarding 5min warm up:
The goal of the game mechanics/rules should be to minimize/eliminate the amount of ambiguity or provide at least a baseline/point of reference to diverge from. Having no rules/say on a matter is an omission that should be corrected at the core level as much as possible.

And for the record, it is OK to have differences of opinion on a matter, but when you play a game, it is "fair" to know the rules of the game before you play it. This way, if there are "official" rule out there, that can be considered the default and players can play/plan accordingly. Unless the club/tournament organizer/player base feels otherwise, in which case they can easily change it for there scene as they see fit and inform all those involved of said changes.

[AC mode - INITIALIZED]

I'm going to point out that unlike other factions, Marines have 6 approved lists, 3 of which are orientated around ground pounded forces (or better put, optimized for). We're also damn close to bringing another 2 into approved at this point as well. The tweaks to a collection required to field any of these is absolutely minimal. If I could get all Cher and turn back time, yes I would have preferred less lists and more flexibility to be baked into Codex but at this point that's long since past. If the Codex list isn't competitive and there's power creep, I'm very attentive to said discussion. However a discussion around getting more optimal builds into Codex is going to require a lot of convincing.

The closest "competitor" faction would be Guard but I'd hazard that two of those are pretty fringe in actual competitive play from the data that I've seen.

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!

I have to agree with Jimmy here about the Codex Marine list.

I would add that changing any of the core lists moves the goal posts by which other lists are / should be measured. Furthermore, making such changes effectively ratifies the OTT lists that have encouraged these changes, rather than reducing the offending lists. This in turn would result in a series of tweaks across the board as different lists are deemed 'under-powered' - that way lies madness


I thought that might be the case, but I was using this as an example of the thought processes to analyse the problem objectively. However, if 'tuning' a list is difficult, 're-tuning' it is an art-form IMO.

Out of interest, could you explain the thought processes behind the changes - why did you pick on these particular units / formations and the change to the list.

Keeping with the question posed in the above quote regarding the codex list. I do feel that the only way to play it in a competitive setting, to it's strengths, are with an air assault theme/force. That being said, SM Codex list is typically the first list that many new players take and they typically do not start with an air assault themed army. Therefore the majority of initial games by newer players are not playing to the lists strengths and they are also hampered with a learning curve towards the game of Epic Armageddon itself (activations, combined/supporting engagements...). I believe this contributes significantly to the feeling by many players that the list is underpowered.

Additionally, as pointed out in the above posts, the solution has been to create other SM lists, outside of the Codex list, to address various aspects of the Codex list that was felt lacking. So by definition, the "old" Codex list is underpowered relative to the newer SM themed lists in comparison to those themes found in the new SM lists.

Therefore people are finding that if they do not like or cannot do the air assault, other SM lists are more to there liking and also more powerful because of the themes they are build around, when played to those themes.

I am not advocating anything other then offering my thoughts regarding the question posed, "is the codex list underpowered" The past solutions, alternate lists, of which there are apparently soon to be 8, would indicate that the codex list is underpowered in several areas and in order to remedy those areas the preferred solution has been to create new lists. The alternative solution would have been to look at addressing the Codex list itself. Clearly we have gone down the road of alternate lists as the solution.

Perhaps the question to be asked should be: "Given the approved lists available to Space Marines (of which there are 6 + 2 more to come), are Space Marines, as played by the various approved lists, underpowered/not competitive enough?"
or, given the feedback in this thread around how best to play a Codex list (ie air assault heavy), should be
"The Codex list, built for air assault, is it underpowered/not competitive enough?"

Cogent thinking. Probably as well put as I've heard it before.


Not so cogent. By that thinking BT is underpowered because alitoc exists. Steel Legion must be underpowered because GW then went on to create BSM. Which is in turn MUST be underpowered as DKoK and Minervan were then made. No, they're just trumping up a theme dial to 11 (like bikes? here's tons of them then and inexpensive mech terminators to boot but no devestators! Like lots of tanks? Here ya go!). Yes the Codex list IS deficient in easily building something around the afore mentioned themes but being under powered wasn't why they were created.


So in one hand you state that playing to an air assault theme is due to under powered list but then go on to say that playing other lists to their theme makes those lists more powerful? Sorry but the data simply doesn't back it up. Now if you're meaning instead that the Codex list is deficient when playing other themes then yeah I'll support you there. At this point though it's like complaining that the IF list sucks at air assaulting!


Aye and smashed the landing boats and then burned the rubble for kindling and dumped the ashes in the rivver. Would have been nice if JJ wasn't quite so stuck on the theme picked at the start. The way the game got treated after the initial releases unfortunatly didn't really work out the way they wanted (lots of lists of all sorts of styles and chapters with crazy weapons) so we kinda languished in a poorly named list that, as you point out, tends to be the starter list for so many people to the game.


THIS is the question. Thank you for elucidating it so clearly.

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!

Kuss,
I believe I wasn't clear enough in my above posts about themed SM armies. Never the less, let sleeping dogs lie, that is not the intent of this thread nor is it a big issue for me, merely observations from the outside (my perspective from Canada on the world NetEA environment/development).


THIS is the question. Thank you for elucidating it so clearly. [/quote]

To answer the above question, yes and no.
No, the Codex SM list is not underpowered or not competitive enough when played as an air assault themed list.
Yes, we are witnessing power creep that is undermining the whole air assault themed paradigm. Specifically, lists that include AA with TK and MW (Necron and Ork Gargant, Ferral). A proliferation of formation with token AA models where before they were fewer or more concentrated. (aside from aircrafts, SM had expensive Hunters only, IG had Hydras only, Orks had short range flak wagons only, Eldar (had the best AA) had firestorms). Now we are seeing multiple types of units across armies having AA. Also the ability to imbed AA in many more formations. The range of AA has also increased in some of the newer armies.

I think the biggest threat to air assaults is not the token AA units that are appearing that are few or have high hit numbers, but the units that have long range (45-60cm or more) and good to hit odds (by virtue of quantity or quality). The real game changer to air assault is AA with TK or MW. I don't think these special abilities should exist with AA personally as it creates a very binary outcome that undermines a whole style of play (air assault).

I play against these lists regularly:
Necron Pylons with Fearless teleporting livingmetal DC2, 90cm AA4+ TK (1) and 120cm MW4+ TK(d3)
Ork Gargants DC 8 with there wyrdboy towers 30cm (d3) AA 5+ MW
ATML Knight World AA Guns (unit of 3 with 3 gun tractors to absorb hits) 60cm AP6+/AT5+/AA5+
and it has discouraged me from playing my Codex SM completely because I feel the Codex list only does one thing well, air assault, and that is an uphill battle against these armies. Therefore I am lucky and I can leave my SM at home, which I have done for the last year, and take other non SM lists. In a tournament or if I didn't have such an extensive collection I would not be so lucky.

I must be missing something here. While air assault is great, in situations with MW/TK or long range AA surely the solution is to use teleport or drop pod troops?

_________________
Walk softly. And carry a big gun.

Or use the other assets to suppress the AA before the Air Assaults come in.

I'm fairly certain that the term "air assault", as used contextually in this conversation encompasses planetfalling TBricks as well (just for brevity written that way). The UK, and now NetEA have a faction rule in the Marines to allow them to pick the deployment method after seeing the opposing army, the so called "superior tactics" rule. Lots of hot MW AA death everywhere? Teleport or Pod or Planetfall as you feel appropriate.

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!

Yeah, gotta say my 60cm Squat aa guns don't do a great deal to repel thunderhawks!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

_________________

Believe me, Squat AA is going to have an overhaul between now and the next and list!

Using the E-UK stats again, it is interesting that the Codex marines may not be doing quite as well against the other lists as against the core lists although the difference is small; 31% win 42% loss as opposed to 40% win, 37% loss. However, apart from the BL mentioned above no other list has more than 22 games and thus the statistics are less likely to be valid.

As I said originally, the newer lists are requiring Marine players to use optimal list compositions and tactics though they can still win. I am therefore unsure whether the new lists are overpowered as such, though it is true that the meta is apparently changing where players increasingly expect AA to destroy enemy air-assaults as they approach rather than relying upon placing BMs and OW to doom the subsequent assault. This in turn means that the Marine player needs to counter these tactics in order to impose his assaults - etc.

So far, IMO the Codex list does seem flexible enough to accommodate these different strategic and tactical impositions.

Can we group that set by player(winner) and percentage of total total wins? It would be interesting if RichardL is skewing results

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!

There is no rule in the army lists written in http://www.tp.net-armageddon.org/ that have the tittle of superior tactics.

In transports you have the line:
" Before each game, after the opposing army is known but
before objectives are placed, the Space Marine player may
choose which formations with the “plus transport” aspect
are deployed in Rhinos, Drop Pods or on foot. If the
formation has any units unable to deploy in Drop Pods
then that option cannot be selected."

We read the "after the opposing army is known" as once the enemy faction is known/what list. But not what the enemy army is fielding. SO you have to make the decision still without knowing every minute detail of your enemy's forces