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Dark Angels v1.2 The long slog to NetEA

 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels v1.1 The long slog to NetEA
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:11 pm 
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BBDave wrote:
I would have have thought good design would be allowing the player to play the list the way they want to, not just saying this is it and it only really makes 1 or 2 types of armies.


That's really what the Codex Astartes core list is for. Flexible lists that cover most possibilities for most lists. The specialists are really pushed towards being very specialist, otherwise they run the danger of simply being "codex, but better" lists.


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels v1.1 The long slog to NetEA
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:21 pm 
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It's rare that I push for more restricted play styles but yeah... Mard's doing the right thing here and Doomkitten's basic proposition is correct. This is doubly so for a list that struggles to find justification when There's a preponderance of other Approved and on the cusp of approved marine lists that can be used for DA. This is NOT DA doing basic generic marine things (seriously, take codex, Scions of Iron, Raven Guard, or Whitescars and you've got DA air assault, Iron Wing, Raven Wing themed forces, respectively).

An uber specific list is the cost of having super great toys (seriously the best marine flyers, skimmers, and a giant honking ATSKNF super heavy tank). What a list CAN'T do is usually more important for balance and theme than even what it CAN do.

Think of it as a spectrum where one end is flexibility and the other is toys, especially very killy or tough or special rule based toys/FoCs on the far end. As you accept flexibility the price you pay comes from removing harder or tougher fringe units or more specialized formations/upgrades. Remember, the Astartes faction has more APPROVED lists than any other faction and is only going to get more so with another one on cusp. Since 95% of a collection is usable across lists it means that options and multiple builds for this faction are based more on swapping lists than the need to make each on super flexible unlike say Tau or Nids or Guard (who admittedly have the most flexible army list in existence).

BTW, BBDave, thanks for taking this out for a spin and I look forward to a battle report thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels v1.0 (Going for NetEA)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:40 pm 
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Doomkitten wrote:
That shouldn't be an excuse to go overboard and make overpowered Dark Angels. After the fire storm over the squats that the Australians created I don't think we need another one that can be easily avoided by not discounting all other feedback, even if you don't personally like it.


I was wondering wether to post this reply - I hope it is taken in good cheer.

The Australian community was kind of befuddled and taken about about the firestorm of the terrain rules that erupted on Taccoms a month or two back. As the guy who made the initial post that started that thread I feel partially responsible. But I do wish to clarify what actually occurred.

1) There was a big tournament in Australia that was won by squats.
2) The Squat AC (myself) made a post about this and indicated that we might need to tone down some of the Squat units
3) Various taccoms posters quickly started many a post saying the results were due to "Crazy Australian Terrain rules" that spawned a multi forum thread about all the different aspects of terrain, house rules etc.etc.
4) It was only resolved when a few of the rules meisters stepped in an pointed out that the tourney in question was running the vanilla terrain rules from the book.

How is this relevant? I do want to clarify that although the Australians don't have the crazy houseruled terrain, we do have a distinct australian meta.

There are quite a few players here that are very good at using air attacks and levering the teleporting rules. As a result many local players have developed heavy counter-strategies. Few local players will take to the field without a lots of good Anti-Air for the aircraft and lots of scouts and chaff to stop teleporters.

As a result, vanilla space marines have taken a hit in their effectiveness as two of their strong cards, teleporting terminators and thunderhawk insertions, are much more difficult to pull off.

There has been a fair bit of discussion within the local club about this, and have to say that I lean towards disagreeing with some of the posts made by fellow Aussies that claim that "Vanilla Space Marines are a weak list" but offering the more nuanced view that "some of the main tactics favoured by Vanilla Space Marines are less effective in the local scene".

I hope this brings some understanding of why there is some differing opinion.

This message is put forward in the interest of inter-continental epic peace and love.


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels v1.1 The long slog to NetEA
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:42 pm 
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Oh and actually making a comment on the list at hand, I do really like the theme that you are going with this list. I like the 'no allies secret hunt' ideal and very much like concept of the alternate victory condition.

Keep up the good work Mard, and I look forward to playing against this list.


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels v1.1 The long slog to NetEA
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:10 pm 
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Is there a good central resource for all the lists taken to Oz events? would be interested to see what the other armies are taking and which forces win with specific lists overall at events (need the lists, not just 'eldar beat marines'). Would give those in others metas more context for what it all looks like.

(i've seen them for one event, and I guess some are on wargamerau, but hard to find between all the PFE batreps :o )

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels v1.1 The long slog to NetEA
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:28 pm 
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Apocolocyntosis wrote:
Is there a good central resource for all the lists taken to Oz events? would be interested to see what the other armies are taking and which forces win with specific lists overall at events (need the lists, not just 'eldar beat marines'). Would give those in others metas more context for what it all looks like.

(i've seen them for one event, and I guess some are on wargamerau, but hard to find between all the PFE batreps :o )


Certainly!

Here are some of the main East Coast tournaments (there is also a strong West Coast scene)

Castle Assault. http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=175569&st=0 Second biggest event, uses slightly houserules terrain. Lists on page 4.

Sydney Titans http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=180480 New Event, Titan/War Engine Heavy. Lists on page 2


Cancon http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=182125&st=0 Largest Event. Absolutely by-the-rulebook terrain rules. Lists at the end of the thread

And photos for the above. http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=183753



It might be a task to wade through all the lists, as the larger events do attract a lot of first timers, so there are quite a few lists that are rather badly designed. There is, however, a great tradition of more veteran players bringing them up to speed with better skills quite quickly.


Last edited by Elsaurio on Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels v1.1 The long slog to NetEA
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:28 pm 
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Good points Elsaurio! Thanks for clearing elucidating them. I'm with you about the, from an outside observer perspective, odd ruckus that occurred. It's a tempest in a teacup if anyone wants my opinion (which no one does ;D). It's pretty squashed deal so no laundry needed but great bit of perspective to share. Todah!

I just want to reiterate though that good bad or other, the Marine faction flexibility isn't in the individual lists themselves but in the preponderance of lists available. With a time machine and infinite power may not have desired that to be the case but it is what it is now. If we replace the word, "Codex" with "Other Approved Lists" I think the point DK makes is pretty cogent though.

Elsaurio wrote:
I like the 'no allies secret hunt' ideal and very much like concept of the alternate victory condition.

SAME HERE :) Actually without something that drastic flipping the script I'd literally say, "No thanks" to a Tournament based DA list (though I'd work the absolute shit out of it for a custom scenario(s) based one!). It's, as Kyuss put it, like putting your hand into a woodchipper so much thanks to Mard!

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels v1.1 The long slog to NetEA
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:30 pm 
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Elsaurio wrote:
Apocolocyntosis wrote:
Is there a good central resource for all the lists taken to Oz events? would be interested to see what the other armies are taking and which forces win with specific lists overall at events (need the lists, not just 'eldar beat marines'). Would give those in others metas more context for what it all looks like.

(i've seen them for one event, and I guess some are on wargamerau, but hard to find between all the PFE batreps :o )


Certainly!

Here are some of the main East Coast tournaments (there is also a strong West Coast scene)

Castle Assault. http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=175569&st=0 Second biggest event, uses slightly houserules terrain. Lists on page 4.

Sydney Titans http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=180480 New Event, Titan/War Engine Heavy. Lists on page 2


Cancon http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=182125&st=0 Largest Event. Absolutely by-the-rulebook terrain rules. Not sure where the lists are yet, but the photos are here! http://www.wargamerau.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=183753


Doh ninja'd! These are great! Can we get these thrown up into perhaps the EA Battlereports area (and on an ongoing basis?). Perhaps they are and I'm just missing them which if so, then never mind. I hate for such an awesome resource not getting used. Also let's not go all tangential on the DA thread as well :D

Also a recommendation going forward would be to also indicate the player on the list as well. Harder to related that back to the final ranking when it's Player 4 v Player 1 (unless I missed that earlier in the thread).

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels v1.1 The long slog to NetEA
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:48 pm 
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Elsaurio wrote:
Here are some of the main East Coast tournaments (there is also a strong West Coast scene)

Cheers!

jimmyzimms wrote:
Also let's not go all tangential on the DA thread as well :D

Yep sorry jimmy (and Mard!) just think this is a really important point that would aid understanding between metas, especially where meta difference are causing friction. Could a single central index thread be made linking to pages showing Oz event lists and results? (ideally to specific pages as the threads are big, and with a clear link for which person took which list, as with 5 codex lists IDd by number thats tricky!)

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels v1.1 The long slog to NetEA
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:09 pm 
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Apocolocyntosis wrote:
Elsaurio wrote:
Here are some of the main East Coast tournaments (there is also a strong West Coast scene)

Cheers!

jimmyzimms wrote:
Also let's not go all tangential on the DA thread as well :D

Yep sorry jimmy (and Mard!) just think this is a really important point that would aid understanding between metas, especially where meta difference are causing friction. Could a single central index thread be made linking to pages showing Oz event lists and results? (ideally to specific pages as the threads are big, and with a clear link for which person took which list, as with 5 codex lists IDd by number thats tricky!)


Conincidentally, the best person for this would be Mard himself, who puts in an enormous amount of work tabulating and tracking all the tournament results.


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels v1.1 The long slog to NetEA
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:23 pm 
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You could always put the info in my battle tracker ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels v1.1 The long slog to NetEA
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:06 pm 
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Elsaurio wrote:
There are quite a few players here that are very good at using air attacks and levering the teleporting rules. As a result many local players have developed heavy counter-strategies. Few local players will take to the field without a lots of good Anti-Air for the aircraft and lots of scouts and chaff to stop teleporters.

As a result, vanilla space marines have taken a hit in their effectiveness as two of their strong cards, teleporting terminators and thunderhawk insertions, are much more difficult to pull off.

There has been a fair bit of discussion within the local club about this, and have to say that I lean towards disagreeing with some of the posts made by fellow Aussies that claim that "Vanilla Space Marines are a weak list" but offering the more nuanced view that "some of the main tactics favoured by Vanilla Space Marines are less effective in the local scene".


That is honestly a better way of putting it. I retract my comment of Marines are underpowerd and agree fully with this statement

Apocolocyntosis wrote:
Is there a good central resource for all the lists taken to Oz events? would be interested to see what the other armies are taking and which forces win with specific lists overall at events (need the lists, not just 'eldar beat marines'). Would give those in others metas more context for what it all looks like.

(i've seen them for one event, and I guess some are on wargamerau, but hard to find between all the PFE batreps :o )

jimmyzimms wrote:
Doh ninja'd! These are great! Can we get these thrown up into perhaps the EA Battlereports area (and on an ongoing basis?). Perhaps they are and I'm just missing them which if so, then never mind. I hate for such an awesome resource not getting used. Also let's not go all tangential on the DA thread as well :D

Also a recommendation going forward would be to also indicate the player on the list as well. Harder to related that back to the final ranking when it's Player 4 v Player 1 (unless I missed that earlier in the thread).



We are planning to start keeping all tourney results and at least the top lists (If not all) in a central location - so we can point to our Aussie data to help in world wide discussions. It will most likely be hosted on EpicAU.

Also Castle Assault 2016 will be approved lists only to get the ball rolling on having Aussie data for worldwide discussions, though we will also still be using comp scoring (at this time)


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels v1.1 The long slog to NetEA
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:11 pm 
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Kyrt wrote:
You could always put the info in my battle tracker ;)


Although it's great it's there, we need to keep it separate i think, because of the Aussie meta and (I'm loath to get into an argument here) Terrain interpretations. UK (EpicUK tournament rules) Infinite height will always have different results to Australian (From the book, Cancon 2016 rules).

But back to Dark Angels :)

Thanks for the responses guys, It's great to see positive thoughts about the list. I know i have a fair way to go with it but it's a start. I hope to be having a proxy game next month using my pre-heresy DA's


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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels v1.1 The long slog to NetEA
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:39 pm 
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Sorry for the tangent but I want to clarify: For the avoidance of doubt, I created the battle tracker specifically to give (non-UK) NetEA communities a way to record games in the way Epic UK already does. Just pointing that out in case you or anyone else assumed me being from the UK means the tracker is for the UK (it is not).

Obviously you don't have to use it, but being able to cite data across different metas is entirely the point, because there is no single NetEA meta and in fact it -has- to work that way because NetEA lists need to be balanced that way. IMO the significance of data is limited enough without diluting the numbers between regions. If we need a better way to filter and compare regions within the tool then I can do that (suggestions welcome on the thread). Or of course if you make your own maybe you could open it to all of NetEA for example.

In any case, having the stats recorded for at least the tournaments in Oz would be a good step so, however you choose to do it, thumbs up from me :)

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 Post subject: Re: Dark Angels v1.1 The long slog to NetEA
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:45 pm 
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Kyrt wrote:
Sorry for the tangent but I want to clarify: For the avoidance of doubt, I created the battle tracker specifically to give (non-UK) NetEA communities a way to record games in the way Epic UK already does. Just pointing that out in case you or anyone else assumed me being from the UK means the tracker is for the UK (it is not).

Obviously you don't have to use it, but being able to cite data across different metas is entirely the point, because there is no single NetEA meta and in fact it -has- to work that way because NetEA lists need to be balanced that way. IMO the significance of data is limited enough without diluting the numbers between regions. If we need a better way to filter and compare regions within the tool then I can do that (suggestions welcome on the thread). Or of course if you make your own maybe you could open it to all of NetEA for example.

In any case, having the stats recorded for at least the tournaments in Oz would be a good step so, however you choose to do it, thumbs up from me :)



Sorry Kyrt, didn't realize the tracker was for everyone - might try and start getting the Aussie community to start using it for normal club days, pickup games etc :)
At this point only thinking of recording Aussie tournament stats on EpicAU


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