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Imperial Fists V1.3 list - updated
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=29238		 Page 1 of 5
Author:  kyussinchains [ Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Imperial Fists V1.3 list - updated
UPDATED 13/11/2015

I've updated the list to V1.3 but felt the changes were minor enough to continue with the current thread

I felt it merited a new fresh and shiny thread and any discussion and batreps etc should now go here (I'll lock the old thread to prevent confusion)

as before I've included a statement of theme in the QR file, but will repeat it here for convenience:

Statement of Theme

• This list is intended to represent a marine chapter defending in a siege-setting as exemplified by the Imperial Fists
• To this end, many of the deep-striking and attacking options have been removed, such as Thunderhawks and spacecraft
• The list is envisioned to play either as a full-blown siege defence setup, with large amounts of fortifications, or alternatively as a planetary task force type approach using turrets and bastions to hold ground and deny territory, while the marines carry out a ground-based assault

Most of the changes from V1.2 are relatively minor

- Reduced Price of fellblade by 25 points to 325
- Techmarines now give a void shield to any bastion they are added to
- Hyperios platform changed from 30cm/AA4+ to 45cm/AA5+
- Added Twin lascannon back to devastator centurion, also added a second twin heavy bolter, removed grav gun and increased FF to 2+
- Streamlined text for fortifications and 'automata' special rule

We're now firmly on the road to approval and batreps now count towards getting the list approved, so please playtest away, I'd appreciate attempts to break the list as well as balanced tournament style games, suggestions and ideas still welcome to stimulate discussion! I will update armyforge to reflect these changes in the next few days :)

*list updated 10/06/2015*

Attachments:
imperial fists v1.3 army list final.pdf [197.13 KiB]
Downloaded 457 times
Imperial Fists V1.3 QR final.pdf [105.63 KiB]
Downloaded 367 times
Author:  Dave [ Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Imperial Fists V1.2 list
That game I promised last weekend is happening tonight. I'm talking the Fists against some flavor of CaptPiett's IG (likely SL). Anything specific you want in my list?
Author:  Dave [ Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Imperial Fists V1.2 list
Going with this:

https://traitor-legion.appspot.com/choo ... 22~522~521
Author:  m_folais [ Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Imperial Fists V1.2 list
Your thoughts on the Hyperios platforms? effective or limited scope.

Hunters are cheaper, mobile, more effective. Or are you just cranking up the activation count?
Author:  Dave [ Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Imperial Fists V1.2 list
Definitely the latter. Report and thoughts tomorrow.
Author:  kyussinchains [ Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Imperial Fists V1.2 list
Thanks Dave! Looks like an interesting list, looking forward to the report, I had a game last night against death guard, pics and report to follow

On the hyperios platforms I think they could do with something, I am toying with the idea of boosting them to 45cm and dropping them to AA5+

If anyone wants to test them as such, feel free and report back :)
Author:  Dave [ Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Imperial Fists V1.2 list
Game up here: viewtopic.php?f=84&t=29275

I changed the list after realizing Centurions needed a whole Land Raider to themselves. I've broken down my thoughts into a few categories for you.

List Building

My first thoughts as I ran down the list, and briefly glanced at stats.

  • Centurions: Those are unique, let's test both of those. I don't think Assaults will get into combat, I think the Devs are going to be better but I'll test both. Let's transport them in Land Raiders and make them a "mobile reserve/linebreaker" formation.
  • Tacticals: Cool, I can take bunkers and mines instead of Rhinos. Very fluffy. Why would anyone take razor wire over mines? They're going to be sitting there though, better add some Thudd Guns so they can actually reach something.
  • Scouts: Crap, all that stuff was expensive, I need activations. Scouts it is!
  • Terminators: Crap, I have nothing to get behind his lines with. I need these.
  • Thunderfire: Those are a lot of shots, but I don't think they'll get to shoot much. No thanks.
  • Bastion: That's 200 points of Deathstrike bait. No thanks.
  • Fellblade: Holy crap that's expensive AND 350 points of Deathstrike bait. No thanks.
  • Storm Talons: Well I need AC and more activations, I'll take them. Wonder why no TBolts?
  • Thunderhawk: That's a lot of points for little to no saturation. No thanks.
  • Hyperios: I still need activations. I don't think these will do much beyond deter his AC. Well I can at least use them to stall.

Beyond those, the Formation Constants section took a couple of reads and glances back at the list to make sure I was legal. Some thoughts there:

If you have the 1/3 covering AC/WE/Defenses, I don't think you need to further restrict the defenses to "0-1x for every X formation". It's a lot of double checking that I don't think is necessary. I'd say put them in the 1/3 (my preference) or do the 0-1x thing. Not both.

Also, why the minimum width of 2.5cm?

----

Finally, fortifications:

The second bullet's last sentence confuses me.

Thoughts on the Stats

The Assault Centurion has a twin heavy flamer, that be AP3+.

Thoughts on the Special Rules

I really like "Masters of Siege"; it conveys a theme and does just what its name implies. The First Strike and RA bullets makes me picture infantry that know exactly when to fire at a charging enemy and how to maximize their use of cover.

This bullet doesn't need to be there though: "Imperial Fists formations may replace their 'plus transport' with 2 bunkers plus 125cm2 of trenches, minefields or razor wire for free"

I also never used the 1 more BM ability bullet, mostly due to Matt wanting nothing to do with the siege line. Between the FS and RA stuff I'd be fine without it.

----

Automation is good as well. I'd change the second bullet to this though, it took more than one read for me:

A formation made up completely of units with automaton may only contest objectives.

Also, instead of referencing expendable and then further modifying it, I'd replace the last bullet with:

A formation does not receive a Blast marker when a unit with automation is destroyed, this includes the extra Blast marker from the first casualty of a crossfire and for units destroyed for being out of formation after a move. If one of these units iis hit by a weapon with disrupt it does not inflict a Blast marker. Finally, don't count these units that are lost in an assault when working out who has won the combat.

Slightly more text, but less cross-referencing and confusion I think.

Thoughts from the Game

I really felt the Assault Centurions were better options after the game (not before though, I thought they'd be too slow and the Devs would prove more useful). The Devs were meh for me. Lots of weapons but the ranges are stepped, and they're only FF3+. The Assaults are better in FF and support, but have a nice little MW shot.

I hadn't read the Masters of Siege before the game. I thought my Tacs would do all right up there with some light artillery. Then I went over the rule and thoughts damn, I wouldn't mess with that. The Thudd Guns were the only thing that shot all game. It was a lot of points put I think it was worth it as it dictated the movement of the game.

Hyperios shot 0 times. They were useful for activation burns turn 1, but after that all they did was keep the AC away from my Tacs. 45cm range would get my vote.

I didn't see the point in razorwire if I could get minefields, I'd say you could drop it.
Author:  kyussinchains [ Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Imperial Fists V1.2 list
thanks for the report and feedback Dave :)

I agree with pretty much all your points, they clear things up and help streamline the list, appreciate the comments, will incorporate your suggestions :)

the storm talons are in over thunderbolts as this is meant to represent a 'modern' codex marine chapter so I've included modern toys like LR crusaders, centurions, thunderfires and storm talons

the minefields are a minimum of 2.5cm wide to stop people taking 5mm minefields and stringing them all over the place and gaming it (it was Apoc's first thought to have a 1mm minefield patchwork throughout your table half... I wanted to shut that crap down!)

razorwire is in for the player who wants to move his AV around more safely I guess.... minefields are more dangerous, but also more dangerous for the IF player if he has to move through them.... it doesn't seem very marine-esque to have it though, you'd expect more hi-tech mines for them I suppose, unless there are any people who want more options for siegeworks, I'll remove it

I have had v.similar experiences with hyperios, they rarely shoot but can be handy to dictate where the enemy will and won't bring their aircraft in, I think dropping to AA5+ and boosting to 45cm range is on the cards in V1.3

glad to see that despite your reservations you managed a win, also thankyou so much for taking the centurions for a run out! they seem to have performed as I expected which is good!
Author:  Dave [ Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Imperial Fists V1.2 list
Ah, leave it to Apoc. :P

My only concern then is that this kind of stuff can happen in Baran and DK too, and that people might already have them based on strip bases. What about a FAQ or edit saying you only are susceptable to one dangerous terrain test from them per every move? Or every 5cm?

Should get some more games in at Adepticon. If we can do a batrep or two we will.
Author:  m_folais [ Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Imperial Fists V1.2 list
I got 3 games in at AdeptiCon. The IFs were a threat throughout. Even without air cover, they were able to pressure the flanks or split the center without trouble. Except for the eldar!

First against Nat's speed freaks. Turn one was a bust with only a few blast markers given out. The orks were in my half after T1. Turn 2 was a blood bath. I lost two Engagements. He broke my tacts and devs. The left flank collapse. The right flank had both fell blades. They scared the shit out of the orks. Then the whirlwinds fired breaking his center. Turn 3 was a mopping up action.
Without the whirlwinds killing every T2 the game would have been close to a draw

Second was Scott's Eldar. Scott beat me like a red headed step child. I splashed maybe 4 stands all game. Total rout.

Third game was Steel Legion. The IF suffered the fire through T1 and T2. I rolled his left flank and took the center. Then T3 came. I failed to activate One Fell blade. the vinnies, the scouts, the whirlwinds, the tactical, and one of the preds. Everything moved for position.
It was the end of the day. I had 1-0 on him and called it a draw.

Next time I will try out tacticals with bunkers.
Author:  m_folais [ Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Imperial Fists V1.2 list
This can not be right?

"Imperial Fists formations may replace their 'plus transport' with 2 bunkers plus 125cm2 of trenches, minefields or razor wire for free."

So my Tactical detachment gives up the Rhinos and get the above. I though a 125cm was way too much we cut it to 50cm and two bunkers. (2 FW bunker, 5 straight FW defense line, and 2 curved FW sections)

A 2 by 2 section is 60cm. I play on GW battle boards. We were playing a corner Vs corner scenario. Look at the picture. This is crazy. I could occupy half the board and I used less than half the allotted amount!
Image

There is something wrong! It has to be far shorter. Maybe one bunker and 25cm or 30cm?
Author:  kyussinchains [ Sun Mar 29, 2015 9:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Imperial Fists V1.2 list
It may not be totally clear but its 125 square cm with a minimum width of 2.5cm which gives a max length of 50cm

I'm probably going to re-write this in the 1.3 list to help clarify!
Author:  m_folais [ Sun Mar 29, 2015 7:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Imperial Fists V1.2 list
I did limit it to 50cm. That is pretty close to a 1/3rd of the board. The Fist can do it twice in exchange for transports. That would cover half the board.

I would say one bunker and 25cm in exchange for the transports.
Author:  Ginger [ Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Imperial Fists V1.2 list
A square area or even a length can be abused or misunderstood. Perhaps it could be specified as a "fire-base" of specific dimensions?
Author:  kadeton [ Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Imperial Fists V1.2 list
m_folais wrote:
I did limit it to 50cm. That is pretty close to a 1/3rd of the board. The Fist can do it twice in exchange for transports. That would cover half the board.


Not sure what you're saying, exactly. A normal board is over 22 000cm² - you'd need about 60 formations' worth of razorwire (at 125cm² each) to cover just a third of it entirely.

If nothing else, this thread is a good example of why it's not a good idea to give area measurements. Give specific dimensions instead!
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