[edit]Due to little interest in this and AC shift will be closing this down. We'll discuss in 2016 fresh [edit]

Now that the new amendments to the Codex list have been put through, I would like to assess some other changes to the list for possible future inclusions.

It's main aim is to:
Break the reliance on two singleton Warhounds and replace one with a Marine unit - specifically the new Predator formation;
To inject a couple of the newer less, controversial units to give the Codex list a bit of modernity without going overboard;
Make a couple of changes to upgrades that make more sense in terms of the final formation e.g. the Assault formation gaining a matching speed unit in the Predator and losing the Vindicator.

The list is definitely not Developmental, as I don't want to see both this list and the Codex list turn up at the same NetEA tournament. I guess it will be Experimental until such time that the list gains traction, or not, for any particular unit types listed.

I am also aware that this may detract from play testing the other Developmental Marine lists by holding them back, but I think that some of the changes are already included or not required in those lists (part of the reason those units were chosen) and this should help reduce the need to play test them (e.g the Land Raider Crusader) and hopefully cut down on the time required.

I feel the changes to be moderate but it's highly likely others won't feel this way - as I know changing this particular list is not universally popular, but we won't know until we try it as a whole force on the table top.

At this point, I'd like to see as many people as possible try to break the list, so we can iron out any glaring OTT possibilities within the it.

Changes and reasoning:

Predator formation: a 5-unit formation to increase durability similar to a singleton Warhound and increase in firepower to offset the easier loss of vehicles compared to the WH that can continue firing even when damaged. Minimal increase on the BMs required to break the formation, and tries to keep it fighting a little longer. Priced at 275 to match the current single Warhound. (Also considered: cost of Annihilators 275 and Destructors 250 - mainly to try to increase numbers seen on the table than anything else as the Pred A is still the better option).

Predator upgrade: Added this to all Marine infantry barring Scouts and Terminators to assist in shooting and assault options. The addition will hopefully see the Destructor be more useful as a FF support option. I also added this upgrade to the Assault formation to give a more sensible addition than the Vindicator, with matching speed. A hard two-upgrade is designed to force a choice in cost increases while reducing min-maxing.

Warhound singleton 0-1: In conjunction with the Predator formation change above, aimed at reducing reliance on this unit when taken as two formations. This comes with a price reduction back to the old pricing due to the lack of the premium needed that came with the two singletons.

Vindicator: Weapon name changed to Astartes Demolisher and weapon stat receives Disrupt and IC FF as discussed recently. Added upgrade to the Vindicator formation and removed it from the Predator formation due to its less than effective addition.

Land Raider Crusader: This was added to the various Land Raider options in the list for a bit more modernity and different transport options. The slight boost in post-air assault extraction possibilities for Terminators will need to be monitored closely however.

Land Speeder Storm: Another unit added for modernity and to test how the additional scouting Land Speeders effects the Scout formation in terms of punch etc. Cerberus Launcher may need removal depending on its effect.

Spacecraft transport: Dreadnoughts moved to AV section for transport purposes to see if the usage of Dreadnoughts might increase and how that will effect drop list power.

So those are the changes. Hopefully they aren't list breaking. Time and experience will tell.

Thanks all.

Looking good Dobbsy, these are mostly really solid suggestions and should work well.
Some comments :-

• List name
  Why not give this list a higher version number; V5.0 (Experimental)
  while also adding a version number to the existing "approved" list
  
  
• Singleton Warhounds
  Yay, at lats! Indeed I would go even further and restrict singleton Warhounds to the inclusion of particular formations, though perhaps not until we establish the impact of these changes.
  
  
• Predators - I like the numbers, but would prefer split costs. That said, I would like to think that the higher numbers of Preds will encourage the inclusion of Pred Ds.
  
  
• Vinidcators
  Up to 6 for 300 with IC FF and Disrupt will allow people to make use of imaginative T&H Objective placement. May now find a place in lists to take care of fortifications etc . . . .
  
  
• Upgrades
  I like the idea of adding Preds as an upgrade, except as an unrestricted upgrade to the Tacticals. I have a feeling that you could create a really hard formation by having Preds, Vindis and RBs together . . .
  Perhaps you could make this particular upgrade "Predator OR Vindicator"??
  
  
• Landspeeder Storm
  This is the only unit / upgrade that I am unsure about, both because I do not think it has been sufficiently play-tested and also because scouts are already one of the best Marine formations; I am not sure they need 'improving' - though this is more a gut-feeling than anything else

Most looks ok to me.

One thing I'm less sure on is the name change to the Demolisher.
Let's face it, Chaos Vindicators have exactly the same gun, in exactly the same vehicle and are crewed by exactly the same super-humans. It's pretty hard to justify the changes not being considered for the Chaos Vindicators as well.

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Thanks Ginger, I hope so.


Yep definitely possible. Just went with a basic idea to begin with and give a specific year of trial. Might be clearer as Experimental though.


Yeah I felt keeping them the same to begin with so it's one less change from current but was torn when I did so. can easily adjust in the future.


Of all the Pred upgrade placements I felt the Tac one to be the most difficult due to the exact reason above but went with it anyway as I wondered why would the most prominent formation not get them. I do like your either/or idea though. Might steal that after a few playtests to see how it fairs first. Given they're separate upgrades how would you implement that split idea Ginger, in the Tactical's list of upgrades?


Yeah understood. I felt that the Storm was a borderline inclusion but a few people I've spoken to feel it might be an interesting addition. This is definitely one of the units that I think needs the most testing.


Onyx, yeah I imagined this would also go into the Chaos lists regardless pretty much due to what JZ said above, but the name is mainly a sort of WIP to differentiate it from the IG Demolisher. It's not necessarily staying but does provide a divider at the moment and might still be a work-around for the future. There's always the "Vindicator Demolisher" if these stats works out.

Tried a few times assault marines with the preds with flamers in the sallie list for 250 (same as here) and they were an ok formation. Slightly more likely to field it than before as otherwise the assault marine remains fairly redundant.

With the synergies with the hunter can't see the destructors getting used much - cost wise of course 5 for 275 is pretty much the same as the 4 destructors for 225 mooted.

Still think vindies for 25 each as opposed to no discount for one would have been more interesting...

Weren't tempted to be more radical with the scouts and make them use speeders? (And why do the speeders get scout as well?)

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The addition of the 3+ FF to the formation gives it some ability to retaliate against clipping FF assaults too.


LOL of course, it's cheap! I wanted a bit more balance to begin with.


I prefer to give people an option rather than force it. They get scout because they're LS. They don't have to have Scout but it's where I'd like to start it to see how it works.

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Thanks for taking the risk to put out a trial codex marine list, clearly I'm a big fan of this kind of continual development.

I like the idea behind greater inclusion of the predator upgrade, as it supports a more combined arms approach and will probably result in greater use of the destructor variant, though I think you could have left the option to take 1-2 Vs 2 only.

Unsure how the changes to predator formation, to a min of 5 and upgrades at a min of 2 will affect player's list creation ( for the simple fact people have established armies that probably only have 4 of the type, I know I fall into that catagory) I think you could achieve the same effect your after by keeping the base at 4, and providing a discount for the 5th or 6th vehicle through the ability to add 1-2 as an upgrade. Anyway, we'll run with this for a while and see.

I'm definitely looking forward to running some vindicators in either a tactical formation or in support of one to help clear out cover.

I also think the addition of the crusader will allow for some aggressive tactical formations. I've found that with the redeemers in the salamanders list - they seemed to synergise with the assault/firefight role that my tacticals were best employing, whilst standard raiders were best by them selves in a MBT role.

Thanks Dobbsy. I think this will be positive for the list and expanding the community in the long run.

this seems like a good starting point



loss of the vindicator makes me sad, as an assault tank, its natural place is accompanying assault marines, it also gives them a shooting attack AND cover bonus, the trade off is that the formation is slowed down slightly....



while I get the warhound hate, I generally disagree with these kind of limits, in a 4/5k game I don't think single warhounds will have quite the impact they do at 2/3k I'd be more in favour of a price bump to 300/325 as well as the boosted predator formation... I'd be less inclined to drop 650 on a pair of warhounds in every list....



I sorta share Onyx's concerns, but as I said before, if it fits in the list, then it doesn't hurt the chaos lists at all if they don't get the upgrade



I like the unit, and it's probably the unit that most warrants inclusion, still concerned that we're making too many changes to the list and removing it from its status as a litmus test



in all honesty I don't think this is needed, scouts are plenty good as they are, add razorbacks if you need more punch.... plus it's the same effect on the list as adding the crusader



I think this is a decent inclusion, I doubt it will make much difference as your options to move dreads around after drop is pretty limited....

overall I'm okay with most of the changes from a trial POV.... although they mostly seem to be buffs which are slightly offset by the reduction of singleton warhounds and the removal of options that were rarely taken anyway.... I think the list was fine as it was power-wise, but I suppose testing will tell

I do also think these changes may hurt development of some of the other SM lists as people abandon them to playtest the codex list.... it also disincentivises people to play a variety of lists if they can get their new toys in the main list

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Onyx, yeah I imagined this would also go into the Chaos lists regardless pretty much due to what JZ said above, but the name is mainly a sort of WIP to differentiate it from the IG Demolisher. It's not necessarily staying but does provide a divider at the moment and might still be a work-around for the future. There's always the "Vindicator Demolisher" if these stats works out.[/quote]
Have you consulted Steve54 about the potential prospect of changing the Vindicators gun in the CSM lists? You really need to! If he's against a change to the gun then that would really rule it out (needs to be same in both) and you'd have to fix the Vindicator another way (droppi​​​​​​​ng the price would be much better and less controversial a fix).

I'm not keen on the Predator change. It's unneeded – they are a good choice as is. Many of us (myself included) have Predators in multiples of 4 and forcibly changing it to 5 is going to cause problems for people who don't have than many (painted or at all). I'd strongly prefer leaving them as was with and if you really want the possibility for 5 couldn't this better be done by an optional upgrade from 4 to 5?

Great to see the Land Speeder Storm! The 'plus transport' needs to be removed from the Scouts though. Scouts have never ever had access to Rhinos or Razoracks in any version of 40k or the background. For practicality in epic they needed to be given some kind of transport so got them. Later they got a dedicated Scout trasport vehicle in 40k in the form of the Storm and now they have it the inappropriate Rhinos and Razorbacks should be removed. Cerberus Launchers are fine – without free Rhinos mobile Scouts would now cost 250 so decent weapons make them worth it.

Warhound – good to see it a singleton. Change the price back to 275 though! It's long been recognized to be worth that. Allies free armies should be encouraged and a free boost to the Warhound definitely isn’t needed or appropriate.

With the LRC mobile Terminators could be 500 and worth taking


Why wouldn't they get Scout? It definitely seems appropriate. They are crewed by Scouts and each unit and transport would likely spread out and do their own thing.

Missed the Preds as 5 minimum - agree with others that minimum of 4 with 1-2 upgrades is the way to go here, both because it matches what people have (and what GW sold) and because it allows the player to choose where to spend the additional points.

This also resolves the point break question for Pred D as you can re-use existing suggestions.

As stated its is a WIP / trial statline to test a improvement to the vindicator. Dobbsy can only exert so much influence over other lists. If one race identifies a strong need for change, and others refuse base on their own agenda, then there are few options available. The argument for dropping the SM vindicator cost lower Vs the argument for increasing the cost of a CSM one should the demolisher cannon Mk2 prove too effective in that list alone are fairly equal...


4-6 would be great and 1-2 in the other formations.


Your argument here for the removal of rhinos/razorback sort of conflicts with your justification for the reduction back to predator formations of 4? Plenty of people will have scout formations currently riding in rhinos etc, probably the same people with predator formations of 4
But in a strict, 40k to Epic conversion - yes 10th company scouts don't have rhinos/razorbacks as a general rule. I thought though that scouts in Epic, also represented PA marines operating in dispersed formations etc.. (bit abstract but was a justification given to why scouts had access to rhinos etc)

Not at all a fan of Storms - I think there are far better, more characterful and more needed units that could be included instead of Apocalypse Down style un-power-armour-assisted proto-marines clinging to the outside of a speeder. And that's before mentioning the unnecessary boost to what is already a good unit (now made better with the sniper upgrade change). I also totally agree with Ortron's PoV on the removal of Rhinos and Razorbacks. Why take an option away that people already have, just after the effort of adding another that people don't yet have?

Otherwise, I like the look of the additions and modifications, purely from a theoretical point of view - although I'm not convinced that the Warhound needs the price drop and the limitation might be better tied to a points value. One singleton per 3k or part thereof perhaps?

Second the opinions to leave predators at base 250 for 4. I'm ok with giving the 1-2 pred option.