I remember the demolisher being MW going round several times in the past. Affects demolishers, Baneblades and vindicators. We probably could do it - if demolishers were too exciting an option then their sponson weapons could change. But it does enter the MW arms race a bit.

Ok, I totally agree that the current list should stay broadly as is, because it is internally balanced, it *is* the yardstick for other lists, and because continually adding further units / formations is a lot of work which would tend to leave the list in a permanent state of "development"

That said, I can see the point of creating a "Codex" list that contains all the new goodies, if for no other reason than to keep up with GW and provide some form of 'bridge' to 40K.

1. Is it possible / practical to do this?
2. What would the list be called - could it be some valid GW campaign name or is "Codex 2015" preferable?
3. How could we balance this against the original Codex 'yardstick? How would this be used in the context of the existing lists

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I *will* say that the LR demolisher, at least in my experience, is ruddy awesome as it is..... but that's not for this thread... I suppose we could always rename it to vindicator cannon or similar....

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Yes, this would be a great place to get to, except I don't see this happening and there's no drive, or even direction from above, to do so. The catch cry of "there's nothing wrong with it" or "I don't see an issue with it'" immediately springs to mind here.

On the flip side, I'm strangely curious to know however, why it is that people are fine and happy with the Biel Tan list (probably one of the best examples of a list that needs none) receiving buffs (and minimal de-buffs), but not the Marine list?

The vindicator receiving MW has two issues.

1/ MW is apparently "not the Marine way."
2/ Giving it to the Marines mean the other lists with the Dem Cannon get an auto increase in power too - the BB in particular increases the list far more given the unit that uses the weapon is a WE. I'm not sure I'm keen to cause that to occur as it just defeats the purpose of buffing the Marine unit - i.e why increase your list when it increases the enemy unit two-fold? (NB: I may be looking at it arse-backwards here but it's how I immediately feel)

there is always a lot of inertia when you try to take people's toys away....

out of interest, do you have a list of current lists which you feel are on a higher 'power level' than the codex list? without wanting to offend or upset the relevant AC/SubACs, let's just get it on the table, then we can discuss it openly, I think to have the discussion we need as much information behind it as possible

I think the krieg list is pretty tough, and could do with some looking at (which does seem to be happening) but there are probably others that need investigating too.... does anyone else share these concerns?



I'm confused about this too, I thought the BT list was approved.... simply don't understand why most of the big changes are on the table.... but I've got less of a vested interest in keeping the eldar in line as I'm not at risk of having significant changes sneak into my list through the back door....


I think it will make a good blitz guard unit, or even an upgrade, sit a formation on OW on the blitz and people have to deal with hot macro death....



one solution would be to rename it to 'vindicator cannon' or 'vindicator siege gun' then we can avoid having our changes creep into other lists (unless the other lists need it)

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Just on the Demolisher cannon point: Vindicators and Baneblades seem to be regarded, if not as useless, then at least as not quite as competitive as other options for the points. Strengthening the Baneblade has been discussed several times and proposals have been for various options. For the Baneblade and the Vindicator, this could be the solution.

And as for the Demolisher? For Steel Legion armies, shift it to take the same place in a company as the Vanquisher and for Minervan tank companies? Bump the price.

Personally, I think adding MW to the Demolisher Cannon is a no-brainer and a win-win across the board.

Maybe we should hive off all the new unit requests into a marine 40k kitchen sink list, just to see how it looks! Just think of all the rhino, land raider and dreadnaught varients, oh and terminator types, veterans and marines in marines . I was actually be interested to see it all together, if only to see where 40k has got to with marines.

I've already begun sorting out the unit types TRC.... I'll probably get to it more diligently in the new year though.

Uh-huh


Oh no no, I'm not going down that route again. Sorry but I don't need the agro.



Do you consider the changes I am looking at proposing (as an immediate inclusion) significant?



Or a Planet-falling MW-ing formation of doom.... Lordy, I can see the pundits comments now


True, but I sense it will just see the other lists renaming their own weapons based solely on the fact it is based on the Dem Cannon....

I think theory hammer has probably reached its limit, we either trial it or move on.

I know TRC and others have big concerns over the planetfall MW unit of doom but run some numbers and I just don't see it occurring.. The hits/kills can similarly be achieved with other existing units.

We also talk a lot about balance when what people are referring to is a violation of their perceived way in which a list "should " look or act which is intangible. Balance is achieved through points and army list design limitations.

The changes to the Biel-Tan list mostly deals with internal balance.

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Or just accept/assume Marines have access to different ammo types than standard Imperial Guard regiments.

Also, does the Demolisher cannon [i]really/[i] justify being a better (but shorter ranged) plasma cannon?

Is that so when eldar fight other eldar the result is more balanced?

Sorry..

Reference demolished cannons, vindicator, baneblades and leman russ demolishers. Given two are considerd sub par and one good, would a modification to MW4+ for the demolishers cannon and changing plasma cannons to AP5/AT5 no slow fire work? What other unit uses the plasma cannon apart from DA marines?

Russ Demolishers are good? (What am i missing, I and I have so many I can use!)