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Blood Angels List Development Thread
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=27683		 Page 7 of 29
Author:  Ginger [ Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
Been away, so apologies for the delayed response.

Baal Predator:- a close range assault tank. I understand the principle, but am cautious about the loadout. They are stepping into Vindi territory with IC on all their weapons . . .

On the SG,
  • 450 for the formation may actually be a bit light but is definitely a good start. That said, they will be brittle compared with Termies, and even with these stats I suspect they may not be as cost effective - a "Fluffy" rather than a competitive choice as you suggest, though time and testing will tell . . .
  • The "Honour guard" rule is a *really* good idea to encourage players to be cautious about their use. If possible, you should include the 'fluff' about their legendary status etc to reinforce these thoughts.
  • To chime with this, you should consider adding "invulnerable save" to their stats, which will make them more balanced against Termies, while also offsetting the Honour Guard nerf.
  • I strongly recommend the inclusion of the SG upgrade as a viable alternative, allowing the player to avoid having the SC in the BTS formation;
    • The upgrade of two SG units *must* include the SC. (You might allow the player to put the SC elsewhere in the formation if they desire.)
    • The true cost of the upgrade should be ~225. However, if you follow the proposed cost for the SG formation, then the upgrade becomes 200. This way, you can either upgrade an assault formation or have the SG formation, and both are 450.
    • The Honour guard rule would need to be revised slightly:-
        "The army may include the SG as a separate formation or an upgrade to one formation, not both.
        When taken as an upgrade, the loss of each SG unit adds an extra BM to the parent formation.
        When taken as a separate formation the SG automatically becomes the BTS regardless of other formation costs, the loss of which adds a BM to every BA formation in LoS".
  • You might even present a "house rule" for including Dante himself. IIRC there is an old thread somewhere that provides stats for such "special" characters.

Finally, have you had time to consider my other suggestions about revising the structure of the list into "airborne" and "ground-pounding" sections, each containing the relevant formations and transport that would further define the BA?
Author:  kyussinchains [ Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
just a quick question, is there a specific reason why scouts can't have razorbacks? most other marine lists let scouts have them, having a cheap las razorback delivery system in scouts might go somewhere towards helping the lack of anti-tank shooting in the list?

I'm just playing around with the list, looks like razorbacks are absent from tacs and devs on armyforge, which I'll correct shortly :)
Author:  Xenocidal Maniac [ Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
Now it's my turn to apologize for the late reply. I had intended to post again once I had completed another batrep, but my gaming keeps getting pushed back.

Ginger, thanks for all the great input. Very helpful. I basically agree re: the Baal stepping on the Vindi's shoes, however, I think that the Vindi itself is the problem. It's a crappy tank and really should not cost 50 points. Does anyone ever take them? I think they are appropriately costed at 35 in the Black Legion list. In marine lists, a Razorback is generally a far more useful option and only costs 25.

The point is, I don't think we should necessarily gimp other options when the Vindicator itself is the problem. But I'll playtest the new Baal and see how it goes.

Yes, it does seem to make intuitive sense that the SG should have an invulnerable save, however, I really wanted to retain the feel of them from 40k. They are a glass hammer unit. Ultra elite, tremendous offensive output, but they get blowed up by the big guns. They don't have any kind of invulnerable save in 40k, and, indeed, they are only wearing artificer armor, not TDA. To compensate, they have jetpacks.

I'll give serious thought to adding Sanguinary Guard in as an upgrade option.

I did consider your suggestions regarding breaking the list up into separate ground pound and airborne units, however, I decided that any major alterations to the list like that would set the development schedule too far back. My goal is to have this list approved before the year is out. I may implement the idea in a themed list later on.

Kyuss - I hadn't noticed that scouts didn't have access to Razorbacks. Indeed, they should. I will make that change. Again, this list should basically be Astartes + toys.

Curious about people's thoughts - Reading the 40k codex, it states that the Blood Angels actually have *more* access to Land Raiders than other chapters, yet then they don't have the option to take them as heavy support - only as transports. So from a fluff standpoint, I suppose it would make sense to include LR formations, but then that doesn't quite jibe with the 40k codex structure. Thoughts?
Author:  jimmyzimms [ Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
Xenocidal Maniac wrote:
Curious about people's thoughts - Reading the 40k codex, it states that the Blood Angels actually have *more* access to Land Raiders than other chapters, yet then they don't have the option to take them as heavy support - only as transports. So from a fluff standpoint, I suppose it would make sense to include LR formations, but then that doesn't quite jibe with the 40k codex structure.


Wait confused here. BA are all about the Land Raiders but their use is as a dedicated assault transport, yes?
Therefore independent Land Raider formations don't seem fluffy then which appears to be the opposite of what you're saying.
Author:  kyussinchains [ Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
I reckon keep them as transports but maybe offer better price breaks to encourage their use? 75 for one, 125 for two.... hell maybe even cheaper....

With stormravens, pred annihilators and las razorbacks I think you have just about enough AT shooting to help overcome the issues described earlier

I take vindicators quite often.... rarely do they achieve much.... I did find they worked well with assault marines and plan on using that formation more in future, I can certainly see BA using something like that....
Author:  jimmyzimms [ Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
I agree that Vindicators are a 35 point vehicle. They've got their uses but are niche and very dependent on table/opponent (for instance in urban tables they really shine against guard). 75,125,175 sounds a nice spread. I thought they're used primarily with the Devs though or did that fluff eventually drop off over the decades?
Author:  Ginger [ Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
Fair does XoC, thanks for the replies. Lets see how it goes
Author:  Dobbsy [ Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
jimmyzimms wrote:
I agree that Vindicators are a 35 point vehicle. They've got their uses but are niche and very dependent on table/opponent (for instance in urban tables they really shine against guard). 75,125,175 sounds a nice spread. I thought they're used primarily with the Devs though or did that fluff eventually drop off over the decades?

You're both ignoring ATSKNF BTW ;) Chaos cost 35 points for a reason.

I think they also do provide some nice FF values when attached to Assault marines.
Author:  Xenocidal Maniac [ Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
Dobbsy wrote:
jimmyzimms wrote:
I agree that Vindicators are a 35 point vehicle. They've got their uses but are niche and very dependent on table/opponent (for instance in urban tables they really shine against guard). 75,125,175 sounds a nice spread. I thought they're used primarily with the Devs though or did that fluff eventually drop off over the decades?

You're both ignoring ATSKNF BTW ;) Chaos cost 35 points for a reason.


Believe it or not, I had actually factored that in. I still think it's a 35 point tank, at best. If the Razorback is 25, certainly the Vindicator with far less utility should not be double the cost. That's a debate perhaps best left for another thread, however. I have no plans to change the cost of the Vindicator in this list.
Author:  Dobbsy [ Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
It also has more armour than a Razorback and a honking big shooter that provides AP3/AT4 ignore cover. That's not 35 points in my opinion.
Author:  kyussinchains [ Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
I'm with Dobbsy, they do (barely) justify being 50 points each, although I've given them a points break (1 for 50, 2 for 75) in the IF list as upgrades which has seen testing in almost every IF list I've played and definitely doesn't feel overpowered in the slightest
Author:  Ginger [ Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
^ This ^ is a great compromise reflecting the fact that Vindi's are less potent than other Marine Armour, but better than Razorbacks.
Author:  Ole [ Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
Moin,

I was wondering how you guys use the Blood Angel scouts. I have difficulties because of the missing heavy bolter.
I use them to screen areas of the battle field. But that’s about it. I find it hard to get in engagement range so they often lurk around and doing not that much.

So how do you use them?


And can somebody enlighten me why they have no heavy bolter? I understand that they are not
the biggest snipers but who doesn’t want a big gun?

Cheers,

Ole
Author:  Kyrt [ Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
Ole wrote:
Moin,

I was wondering how you guys use the Blood Angel scouts. I have difficulties because of the missing heavy bolter.
I use them to screen areas of the battle field. But that’s about it. I find it hard to get in engagement range so they often lurk around and doing not that much.

So how do you use them?


And can somebody enlighten me why they have no heavy bolter? I understand that they are not
the biggest snipers but who doesn’t want a big gun?

Cheers,

Ole

How come you struggle to get them in engagement range? They are fast, can garrison even with their rhinos, and even have Infiltrate.

But TBH if they are lurking about denying area (i.e. your opponent is not dealing with them) then they are probably doing their job well.
Author:  MikeT [ Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Blood Angels List Development Thread
If only they could lurk about and put a blast marker on something!

Removing all shooting from a unit (no matter how innefectial it os) is a massive change as the ability to place blast markers is critical for prepping for assaults and caputuring and contesting objectives turn 3.
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