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[NetEA] Iron Hands (Experimental)

 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:46 pm 
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So guessing you have better things to do than posting here :)

Played some more games and the veterans mixed weaponry (among others) made my brain melt every time the clan would fire or make an assault. I did a somewhat bigger clan with razorbacks, veterans, supreme commander, hunter and landraiders so I got almost 10 different to hit rolls (different length, different to hit, some IC, AT, AP etc) Not saying we should change this but have anyone else tried playing with this unit?

Still haven't used the flesh is weak rule...next time perhaps...

I can't really say what it is but I miss the bionic/mechanic part of the Iron Hands. Perhaps we could come up with something funny for the Iron father? (Fielding him with a couple of dreads and giving them invulnerable saves? :) )

Anyone have a good proxie for the Clan Mobile Fortress? (and no I do not want to pay 60 pounds on ebay for a capitol imperialis) I have looked at the sandcrawler (from star wars) that some other guy uses in his magnificent star wars army.

/Uven


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:52 pm 
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So guessing you have better things to do than posting here


Nar man... its just you :P :D

Actually, I'm on holidays so not visiting the forums much. I have slowly started painting a Iron Hands force though so I'll finally be able to do some testing.

The mixed weapons can be a little confusing to start with but I got used to it playing guard mech inf armies so with a bit of practice it was fine.

properly used the "flesh is weak" should/could be quite powerful. I'm mostly playing Thousand sons of late and their fearless infantry are great at holding ground and getting in the way.

Finally, for the CI I was thinking a 1/72 or 1/48 APC might be a good start point.


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:01 am 
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Hehe, sometimes the real life is getting in the way ;D

I'm planning on bringing more colors in my dice-pool to help out in the shooting next time. Guessing some practice will help with the confusion also.

I'm agreeing that flesh is weak could be good, I just can't use it. Fearless is very good, but you can use it when you are assaulted and that is when I have the most use of it. Just need to find out a good way to use this too, it should be useful but I just can't use it ::)


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:37 pm 
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Had another fight last night and won against Tau 2500p. The victory was mainly because my opponent hadn't read the planetfall rules for his Manta drop...

I'm having a hard time finding the right way to play this army. It feels weak and lack "punch" compared to codex marines :-\
I used drop-pods and the dreadnoughts felt nice as usual but that's it. The army build more like a slow slugger army than a fast attack force but I really haven't found any hard hitters. They can take a lot of damage but they need something more to make them funny.

Custom titans would be fun, but then it will be a titan/SM list perhaps we want that?
"Flesh is weak" I want to change this so we can use it in my opponents turns also. Right now I still after 4 games have had any use of it...

The loss of Terminators need to be replaced by something or am I playing something wrong? We need something with a little range, like bombards ;)

Should I take larger Clans and not bother about activation and mobility, a large clan is almost invincible...?


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ortron wrote:
I think ditch the bomber & talon, you've got the base thunderhawk and hunters for AA.


Base Thunderbrick is complete poo-poo for CAP. The Interdictor model might be more approriate and further distances ourselves from the Air Drop playstyle (which I am good with). Anyone up for a complete swap (not addition)? Well baked and works well in other lists such as Black Templars which don't take Naval assets either and is well tested. Stats for reference

Thunderhawk Interdictor AC/WE Bomber 4+
Turbo Laser 45cm 2x AP5+/AT3+, FxF
2x Twin Heavy Bolter 30cm AP4+/AA5+, FxF
Twin Heavy Bolter 15cm AP4+/AA5+, Left
Twin Heavy Bolter 15cm AP4+/AA5+, Right
2x Rockets 30cm AT4+, FxF

Twice the AA shots and some good ground support for only +50points (we call that a good deal mathematically)

Read this again when building my army but none of the Thunderhawks can be used as AA, it has ok defence AA if someone wants to take it out but the Interdictor or any other model can be used to intercept or put on CAp as they are bombers, or do I read the rules wrong?
I still think we need some fighters or we need to say that this is a intentional weakness.

Scouts cannot take razorbacks, that feels wrong.

You can take a lot of Landraiders, is that good? I only wanted to have enough to transport a whole clan. Before you could only take 1-2 LR but 1-4 veterans (terminators)

Not so many constructive thoughts, next time I will have more :)

EDIT: some ideas

More dreadnought options: vulcan, siege, ironclad, venerable, hellfire, tactical, furiosa...? Not all but some might fit the theme. Also let them have vindicators as support?
I know I said it before ;) bring in the bombards to compensate for the lack of teleporters. Or at least let them upgrade the whirlwinds with 2 more?
Possible special bionics unit, tactical and devastators with inv save or something...like an elite troupe?

Oh and please update the first page with the newest army list :)


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:24 pm 
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More detailed comments to come (currently cooking a whole lamb so completely tied up atm :) ) but here's some notes=>

uvenlord wrote:
More dreadnought options: vulcan, siege, ironclad, venerable, hellfire, tactical, furiosa...? Not all but some might fit the theme. Also let them have vindicators as support?

Got no problem with heavy support with dreads though going to be super hard to position them considering just how slow they are OR are you thinking LC drop with them? >:D Man that could be EVILLLL ha!

uvenlord wrote:
I know I said it before ;) bring in the bombards to compensate for the lack of teleporters. Or at least let them upgrade the whirlwinds with 2 more?

Plan was for Medusas as that's MW (something marines need) and back in older fluff the IH could take them as a support choice in 40k

uvenlord wrote:
Possible special bionics unit, tactical and devastators with inv save or something...like an elite troupe?

Maybe an upgrade to tacts?

uvenlord wrote:
Oh and please update the first page with the newest army list :)

Will do tonight! :D

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:12 am 
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Quote:
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uvenlord wrote:
More dreadnought options: vulcan, siege, ironclad, venerable, hellfire, tactical, furiosa...? Not all but some might fit the theme. Also let them have vindicators as support?


Got no problem with heavy support with dreads though going to be super hard to position them considering just how slow they are OR are you thinking LC drop with them? >:D Man that could be EVILLLL ha!

Perhaps if you used them as a blitz guard against other droppers and/or fast armies. But it was the Landingcraft that I had in mind :)
If we take in some dreads the MW type would be nice as I play a lot against tanks with RA... :)

Quote:
Plan was for Medusas as that's MW (something marines need) and back in older fluff the IH could take them as a support choice in 40k

Might be fun, didn't know they had Medusa support in 40k :) but...my concern is the reach, without long range attacks they need to come down in a pod. Medusa is a short range support weapon and might come in handy but does not substitute the lack of teleporters and tunderhawks.

Quote:
Quote:
uvenlord wrote:
Possible special bionics unit, tactical and devastators with inv save or something...like an elite troupe?


Maybe an upgrade to tacts?

Sure, why not rename the veterans to "Morlock Terminators" and add these as veterans, perhaps with inv.save, plasma guns and lascannons?


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:58 pm 
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1. So basically add Inv. Save to the terminators? The Morlocks are implied to of been wiped out at the Drop Site massacre and don't seem to be reconstituted though I don't really care if we resurrect the name :) Somewhat skeptical that the weapons change would actually buy you anything considering the perponderance of infantry based AT already. Or are you thinking as an alternative weapon loadout for the veterans add in the Lascannon+Plasma option?

2. I'm somewhat hesitant to bring in Bassis in a marine list but the lack of teleporters makes a BP heavy list not overpowered. I'm a bit more apt to actually allow a larger Whirlwind formation (like 4-6 Whirlwind) as 6BP in the formation gives +1 marker and an extra BM to formations caught under the template. 90cm on indirect fire (don't forget the +1 to hit for the sustain works in bombardment too! >:D ) is nothing to laugh at. Thoughts?

3. Well I am totally happy to bring back ye olde Storm Talon to the list so that CAP is available. The Interdictor should have been in the detachments section anyways as it was at the time of the last list the primary flyer for the list and is self limiting by points cost on being spam'able. However the needs for interceptor are apparent.

4. A Titan + Marines isn't a bad thing. That's kinda the hammer and anvil that I mentioned earlier in the thread that's the core concept for the list. Titans and WW advance and prep (the anvil), Orbital bombardment + pod'd marines (the hammer), crush your enemies beneath your heels :D

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:39 pm 
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1. So basically add Inv. Save to the terminators? The Morlocks are implied to of been wiped out at the Drop Site massacre and don't seem to be reconstituted though I don't really care if we resurrect the name :) Somewhat skeptical that the weapons change would actually buy you anything considering the perponderance of infantry based AT already. Or are you thinking as an alternative weapon loadout for the veterans add in the Lascannon+Plasma option?

I was thinking: Use the name Morlocks for the terminators (some of the sources says that they still exist but that they are rarely fielded, anyhow the name sounds cool :) )
I was suggesting a new unit/upgrade named "veterans" or whatever that had bionics = inv save and different weapons but you are right about the weapons, the do nothing good so lets drop them. Perhaps a close combat weapon instead (bionics) EA+1 ;) but I'm not sure they are needed. It is mainly an attempt to get som bionics in the list...

Quote:
2. I'm somewhat hesitant to bring in Bassis in a marine list but the lack of teleporters makes a BP heavy list not overpowered. I'm a bit more apt to actually allow a larger Whirlwind formation (like 4-6 Whirlwind) as 6BP in the formation gives +1 marker and an extra BM to formations caught under the template. 90cm on indirect fire (don't forget the +1 to hit for the sustain works in bombardment too! >:D ) is nothing to laugh at. Thoughts?

This sounds really good ;D

Quote:
3. Well I am totally happy to bring back ye olde Storm Talon to the list so that CAP is available. The Interdictor should have been in the detachments section anyways as it was at the time of the last list the primary flyer for the list and is self limiting by points cost on being spam'able. However the needs for interceptor are apparent.

Do so if you like, have to look up the Storm Talon a little better before I say something about it. (Is there a model for this or some easy way of converting one?)

Quote:
4. A Titan + Marines isn't a bad thing. That's kinda the hammer and anvil that I mentioned earlier in the thread that's the core concept for the list. Titans and WW advance and prep (the anvil), Orbital bombardment + pod'd marines (the hammer), crush your enemies beneath your heels :D

Sounds good. My main concern so far is the lack of AP shots and the lack of range (and perhaps MW attacks... :-\ ), perhaps we can have that in mind when we choose the titans weapon-options :) I think a simple weapon swap for each class would be enough.


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:30 pm 
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I think lacking a Terminator formation is one of the neat unique elements of the Iron Hands. That said, why not give the Terminators Inspiring? That's apparently why the Iron Hands distribute them as they do.

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:13 pm 
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I think lacking a Terminator formation is one of the neat unique elements of the Iron Hands. That said, why not give the Terminators Inspiring? That's apparently why the Iron Hands distribute them as they do.

True, that and the bionic/mechanicum "thing", but giving them inspiring would be to powerful with this build don't you think? (or were you thinking of some more changes?)
I played around with the idea of giving all the characters terminator armor but I think the way they are now is a simpler and better solution...

Do you have any other ideas on how to make this army more Iron Handy? ;)


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:18 pm 
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uvenlord wrote:
Do you have any other ideas on how to make this army more Iron Handy? ;)

For some reason I think they smell like stinky cheese. I don't know how that translates to game terms however ;)

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:15 am 
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True, that and the bionic/mechanicum "thing", but giving them inspiring would be to powerful with this build don't you think? (or were you thinking of some more changes?)
I played around with the idea of giving all the characters terminator armor but I think the way they are now is a simpler and better solution...

Do you have any other ideas on how to make this army more Iron Handy? ;)


I was just talking in a vacuum. Basically, if you're concerned that there's a lack of smacking power, add another source of Inspiring in the form of Terminators.

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:18 am 
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Am I wrong or can TH's only AA defensively (as they are Bombers and can't intercept) or when enemy remain in arc? Or is your plan to have no AA apart from Hunters? Am I missing something here?

On the naming of the formations unless they have a specific difference to Codex structure or it's really fluffy from the fluff :) it's probably best and less wordy to just call them their Codex names. e.g. Close Quarters Support = Vindicators. etc Keep it simple for new people and easier to remember in game for opponents.


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:24 am 
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Am I wrong or can TH's only AA defensively (as they are Bombers and can't intercept) or when enemy remain in arc? Or is your plan to have no AA apart from Hunters? Am I missing something here?

Right now we only have Hunters (and landed thunderhawks) so thats why we look at other options, like the Storm Talon. When Thunderhawks land they have som flak attacks but if they stay in the air they can only shoot at interceptors attacking them. (If I read the rules right?) But the Thunderhawk variants we talked about (interdictor and bomber) can't land and can't attack other aircraft so they can only defend themselves...
I might be wrong but this is how I read the rules, please correct me if someone knowes better :wah

Quote:
On the naming of the formations unless they have a specific difference to Codex structure or it's really fluffy from the fluff it's probably best and less wordy to just call them their Codex names. e.g. Close Quarters Support = Vindicators. etc Keep it simple for new people and easier to remember in game for opponents

Totally agree, but the IH terminators have different stats than the ordinary ones so they need a different name. (no teleport and different weapons)


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:29 pm 
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Oh that sort of thing is fine but even the Recon formation is still just a Scout formation etc ;) Anything with the exact same formation and unit make up should probably be named the same for clarity of play. I know militarised names sound cool but for the sake of your opponents it's easier to stick with canon. :)


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