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[NetEA] Iron Hands (Experimental)

 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:04 pm 
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ortron wrote:
As usual, I'll now offer up some comments to the Iron Hand's brains trust :)

That's our new name, folks! Time for tee shirts!

ortron wrote:
1. List format
Now that clans and detachments are essentially the same thing, may I suggest you combine them into "Iron Hands Detachments" rather than have two groups in the army list. Then just use "1+" and "0-1" modifiers, that you already have, to ensure the standard clan is taken at least once and the mobile fortress is a one off.

I left this in this way for an actual reason as I wanted to have a conversation regarding them in the future. Looks like that is now so I now bring forth to the brain trust to render judgement the following:

This has to do with fundamental list direction which will affect everything to come to hence the need to converse about the core theme of the list structure.So

1. we can collapse everything together and call it good. This has the need then for us to rethink upgrades and other limitations to the list as at that point we're approaching Codex++ list.
2. The other option, which I am personally inclined to is to:
a. You can take X detachments per Clan taken
OR
b. You cannot take more detachments than Clans (this works somewhat then like Space Wolves, the other seriously non-codex list out there)

Doing that also puts the Clan structure front and center and with Dred Phalanx in there, stresses the Preds and Dreds theme.

Thoughts?

ortron wrote:
Dread detachment - Yay!!!

Yeah same here. I finally have a reason to paint up the 16 Contemptor Dreadnoughts in my collection! :D

ortron wrote:
I think the standard assault marines could live in the clans/detachments list. After all the iron hands have no issues with getting in your face and beating you to a pulp. Their ability to air assault will still be limited though through the limitation on flyers. Assault units backed up by vindicators or dreadnoughts (especially an iron clad or siege dread) fits well into my image of Iron Hands but I guess that's my 2c.


Agreed. It will also further distance them from the Salamanders list which is very suitable for Iron Hands. Dobbsy and I had brought that up in the past. Going once, twice...??

ortron wrote:
Personally I'd stick with standard options of Warlord, Reaver, 1-2 warhounds.

uvenlord wrote:
If we revert to ordinary titans we might want to find another way of showing their special bond with the mechanicum... no idea how just now though...


As much as I hate that I hav to agree that I jsut can't quite come up with something a little unique in this area to show off the Titan affinty; It just doesn't really fit into the EA mechanics that well. Hell, anything other than Warhounds isn't usually worth the points for Marines IMO. Perhaps some sort of options are opened up with the presence of Titan battle groups? Meh, probably over thinking it...

ortron wrote:
3. Upgrades
Scout formation has "sniper" but option isn't listed in the "upgrades" list.

"Recon Squad" exists in "upgrades" list but no clan/det can take it (don't think its required as IH aren't known for big scout elements as each clan takes care of its own recruitment, meaning the are unlikely to have more than 10-20 at any one time. (perhaps recon det could be 0-1 per clan?)

Simple error on my part. Will correct the rows.

ortron wrote:
5. Units
"Great Council Retinue" (GCR) - no technical problem with this as it stands, just an alternative option:
Given you already have the venerable dread and veteran officers units, why not just make the GCR a supreme commander character upgrade like normal marine lists - thus conferring the "Supreme Commander" skill to either unit. To further explain, the current GCR is almost identical to the vets, but if you removed their "Thick Rear Armour" and gave them "Invulnerable Save" to represent the bionics, then there is no need for an additional unit (that's almost identical to the vets). Given we were talking of ditching the Bionics rule this might be a way of keeping the theme of veterans being heavily augmented without the need of further special rules.

So basically add a specific upgrade to Venerable Dread and Veteran Officiers allowing yet another upgrade? Hard to organize that but does have some nice aspects.

ortron wrote:
And lastly (I go on don't I?).. What about the bombard, and thudd guns/graviton guns? These sounded pretty cool and seem more Iron Hand(ish?) than Storm Talons and THawk bombers, although I understand you put these in there due to the lack of navy support.

the new units I'm holding off until the above gets hacked out. Then let's pivot to discuss those goodies! :D

ortron wrote:
I think ditch the bomber & talon, you've got the base thunderhawk and hunters for AA.

Base Thunderbrick is complete poo-poo for CAP. The Interdictor model might be more approriate and further distances ourselves from the Air Drop playstyle (which I am good with). Anyone up for a complete swap (not addition)? Well baked and works well in other lists such as Black Templars which don't take Naval assets either and is well tested. Stats for reference

Thunderhawk Interdictor AC/WE Bomber 4+
Turbo Laser 45cm 2x AP5+/AT3+, FxF
2x Twin Heavy Bolter 30cm AP4+/AA5+, FxF
Twin Heavy Bolter 15cm AP4+/AA5+, Left
Twin Heavy Bolter 15cm AP4+/AA5+, Right
2x Rockets 30cm AT4+, FxF

Twice the AA shots and some good ground support for only +50points (we call that a good deal mathematically)

ortron wrote:
Then bring in some infantry support weapons (which can drop pod) and/or the bombards.

Thinking of that exact thing for the Rapiers.

ortron wrote:
If your really keen for more aircraft the storm eagle or caestus seems more in line with Iron Hand way of war.

uvenlord wrote:
Why not go for the usual airplanes? isn't they part of the mechanicum (sort of anyway)


Now that the storm eagle has been kicked back to Fighter-Bomber it might make more sense in that role. The local meta has really gone air-heavy here to the point that they tend to get maxed out and then everything else is purchased (as the classic no-brainer) hence my balancing acts between fluff and still being competitive. Around Seattle, no air power == dead army it seems now. Actually the Mechanicum relies on Avengers only and shies away from air power generally (and only taken at Vaaish's reluctance IIRC). There's a huge crap-storm starting to brew over AdMech and the Avenger right now that I am loath to enter but it might sidestep our concerns for now. Extrapolating a specific Ad Mech Allies section could be where air power could be reintroduced and leave the Storm Talon in the dust. <- this requires more brain fuel to cogitate on...

edit: personal opinion, BT List Style Airpower > Current Ad Mech List Style

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:14 pm 
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Quote:
1. we can collapse everything together and call it good. This has the need then for us to rethink upgrades and other limitations to the list as at that point we're approaching Codex++ list.
2. The other option, which I am personally inclined to is to:
a. You can take X detachments per Clan taken
OR
b. You cannot take more detachments than Clans (this works somewhat then like Space Wolves, the other seriously non-codex list out there)


Sounds fun :)
My vote is 2a with perhaps 2 det. per clan?

Quote:
So basically add a specific upgrade to Venerable Dread and Veteran Officiers allowing yet another upgrade? Hard to organize that but does have some nice aspects.

Not so hard... Add the upgrade to the original unit but write it like the "bionics" upgrade earlier?
If we do this do we have to take the number of veterans you could add to a unit into account? (2 stands less)

Quote:
ortron wrote:
Then bring in some infantry support weapons (which can drop pod) and/or the bombards.

Thinking of that exact thing for the Rapiers.

Sorry but I disagree, rapiers and thuddguns is soooo 30k to me. ::)

If we get the flier stuff sorted I think this list is ready for me to playtest :)
To me the Iron Hands is about Bionics and proud marines(Flesh is weak), Dreadnoughts (Phallanx unit) Close ties with the Mechanicum (?) and has a "ground slugger" feel, much like the death guard army.(Clan units) The airplanes is almost irrelevant to my "vision" so you decide O0

/uven


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:37 am 
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Quote:
Quote:
1. we can collapse everything together and call it good. This has the need then for us to rethink upgrades and other limitations to the list as at that point we're approaching Codex++ list.
2. The other option, which I am personally inclined to is to:
a. You can take X detachments per Clan taken
OR
b. You cannot take more detachments than Clans (this works somewhat then like Space Wolves, the other seriously non-codex list out there)


Sounds fun
My vote is 2a with perhaps 2 det. per clan?


Yeah I'm happy with either 1 or 2a. 2a is probably a better fit since clans aren't as large or flexible as SW great companies can be IIRC. 2-3 per clan is a good, I presume this will this include restricted detachments as well.

Quote:
Quote:
So basically add a specific upgrade to Venerable Dread and Veteran Officiers allowing yet another upgrade? Hard to organize that but does have some nice aspects.


Not so hard... Add the upgrade to the original unit but write it like the "bionics" upgrade earlier?
If we do this do we have to take the number of veterans you could add to a unit into account? (2 stands less)


Sorry, I could have made my idea clearer. Basically once we settle out the stats of Veterans and Venerable dreads, the text in the GCR can read "Add 2 Veteran Officers or 2 Venerable Dreadnoughts. 1 unit gains the Supreme Commander ability"

Going back to the Veterans, is your intent that they = standard terminators + invulnerable save, drop pod - teleport + the new weapon mix?

I'm happy with current mix or you could even add a Cyclone ML if the loss of teleport etc makes them undervalued. ( CML = 45cm Ap4+/AT5+? )

Quote:
Quote:
uvenlord wrote:
If we revert to ordinary titans we might want to find another way of showing their special bond with the mechanicum... no idea how just now though...


As much as I hate that I hav to agree that I jsut can't quite come up with something a little unique in this area to show off the Titan affinty; It just doesn't really fit into the EA mechanics that well. Hell, anything other than Warhounds isn't usually worth the points for Marines IMO. Perhaps some sort of options are opened up with the presence of Titan battle groups? Meh, probably over thinking it...


It would be cool to allow them to choose their titans from the AMTL list like the skitarii & knights do but might prove to be too over poweiring. Definitely a way to show a close relationship and may allow the list to balance out the loss of airpower and small rapid units that give standard marines their flexibility. I'd happily ditch the Navy flyers, bombards and rapier/thunderfire for customisable titans.

In friendly games CAL and I used to do this in SM vs IG battles. We would still hold ourselves to the 33% limit on allies but we allowed titans to be customied and it was lots of fun. Balance was not an issue though because it was allowed for both forces.

Quote:
Quote:
ortron wrote:
Then bring in some infantry support weapons (which can drop pod) and/or the bombards.

Thinking of that exact thing for the Rapiers.


Sorry but I disagree, rapiers and thuddguns is soooo 30k to me.

If we get the flier stuff sorted I think this list is ready for me to playtest
To me the Iron Hands is about Bionics and proud marines(Flesh is weak), Dreadnoughts (Phallanx unit) Close ties with the Mechanicum (?) and has a "ground slugger" feel, much like the death guard army.(Clan units) The airplanes is almost irrelevant to my "vision" so you decide


Rapiers and Thudguns are 30k, I agree but it was possibly a way of showing a reliance on the older tech and the ability to keep it going which other 40k era forces may have lost. I'm happy to keep the thud guns and rapiers in 30k but a new shiny THUNDERFIRE!!! cannon would be cool :)

I can easily see these in a 40k era IH force given the ground slugger theme but I guess I can always play the Siege list if I want to roll out a horde of SM support weapons.

One last point I missed from the latest list review - The Landraider upgrade. This currently only allows 1 LR to be added. Earlier in this thread I thought we were happy with the IH to have whole clan formation in LRs? Further, given there is no independent LR formation available, there will be next to no LR in an IH army. What happened to the IH's LRs - did they die out with Ferrus Manus with the terminators on Istvaan V? ::)

Cheers


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:43 pm 
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I'm bored so... to sync our thoughts/vision here is a quick comparison to the vanilla SM, as i see it, with the Iron Hands list as it stands now + latest discussion points. See if this meets your own.

Iron Hands advantages:
Ability to take larger formations of SM
Integrated Terminators with better save
Greater access to Dreadnoughts
Tough Venerable Dreadnoughts
AT Devastators
Multirole Razorback variant
CI war engine
Temporary Fearless though "the flesh is weak"
Bombard - TBC
Custom Titans - TBC (do it!)
Support Wpns - TBC


Iron Hands disadvantages
No Terminator formation (therefore no teleport attacks)
No navy flier support
Limited access to SM flyers
Limited bikes/speeders
No speeder variants
Limited Landraiders - TBC
bikes/speeders/SM fliers compete with Titans for 33% allies allocation
They cry if a Dreadnought or Titan dies.. boo hoo
No "fighter" type AC - TBC (assuming the Talon is gone?)

Iron Hand Playstyle
As i see it, a IH force will consist of a couple of larger clan formations with some cheaper spt formations such as tanks, scouts and 1+ whirlwinds (to give it some reach). A number of Hunters will be scattered around to provide the AA umbrella.
If the alternate flyer options go, just leaving standard THawk and Landing Craft, air assault will be limited to probably a single THawk in a 3K list.
If we loose the THawk then the bomber/interdictor replacement will either be on suicide missions to kill enemy arty etc or stuck on the fringe until enemy AA and fliers are sorted by ground battle.
Unlikely to see bikes or speeders, (especially if Titans can be customised)
Space craft will be needed to get the most out of Dread heavy formations as other deployment options are too slow and "Cult of the Machine" is likely to hurt you if you take too many venerable dreads and walk them.
No teleports and limited flyers will mean drop podding into the enemy rear will almost be required to silence arty & sniper tanks etc.
Limited hvy armour (Landraiders) will mean that IH armour formations will need to be careful how they act around enemy AT/MW heavy formations.
"The flesh is weak" will allow for some almost suicidal assaults and contesting of objectives.

Hopefully that isn't too far off what you guys are thinking.


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:55 pm 
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Really nice summary ortron :)

Not too far from my thinking.

What bothers me a little bit is the absence of landraiders. Is there any reason for this? Can't find any fluff that supports this (the landraider massacre :) )

The custom titan option would be fun...

Without any aircraft (SM or allied) and teleporting terminators the army will be very weak against artillery, as ortron already pointed out. Not sure the strengths make up for the loss but I guess some playtesting will tell.

/uven


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:39 pm 
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I concur. That's an excellent summary of this list and how (in my mind at least) I'd see them played. One small addition is that rear echelon drop assault is then used as the anvil to the titan / armor hammer. Even if the assault is a massacre, chances are the ground force is on the other side controlling the center.

So a couple of comments and notes:
-Terminator stats were from a scripting error on my side when I merged the document from the source xls. However a terminator unit with both of the two types of EA Termi ranged weapons is kinda interesting when I look at it. Before I revert let's make sure this isn't a fortuitous error.
-Land Raiders upgrade should probably be a +75 point each upgrade (up to 4 probably). Their article in Index Astartes III actually states they have shortages of advanced equipment like Terminator Armour and Land Raiders. However the limitation is built into this list as non-standard Termi unit and having only Land Raider Phobos patterns. I don't see a need to limit the amount of LR in a formation however.
-Tangential question: Since armor is predominantly Predators we should think of a 4-6 sized formation.
-I think we're onto something with the "custom" titans. I don't want to go whole hog on the AMTL build-your-own titan structure but perhaps we can pick 2 load outs per titan class and put them in the list? I will point out that in the original EA book alternative Warlord loadouts existed for friendly play.
-The more I cogitate on flyers the more I like the use of TBrick Interdictor and Bomber units. They're already baked, tested, and competitive. We can then free up some "slots" for more unique units

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 5:22 am 
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Quote:
-Terminator stats were from a scripting error on my side when I merged the document from the source xls. However a terminator unit with both of the two types of EA Termi ranged weapons is kinda interesting when I look at it. Before I revert let's make sure this isn't a fortuitous error.


Yeah I figured the Heavy flamer and Assault cannon was a deliberate change up to give them a mix of standard and anti infantry/siege weapons. This combined with the invulnerable save makes them significantly different than a standard terminator squad.

Quote:
-Land Raiders upgrade should probably be a +75 point each upgrade (up to 4 probably). Their article in Index Astartes III actually states they have shortages of advanced equipment like Terminator Armour and Land Raiders. However the limitation is built into this list as non-standard Termi unit and having only Land Raider Phobos patterns. I don't see a need to limit the amount of LR in a formation however.


Yay! glad this wasn't an anti landraider crusade :) "add up to 4" could work but a fully upgraded Clan needs 6 to be all mounted in LRs.

Possible option: Roll the Landraider and Razorback options into one - call it "Assault Transports" or whatever and have text similar to "Add any number of landraiders and/or razorbacks, up to the minimum number required to transport the formation" then simply "Razorback +25pts each, Landraider +75pts each"

Quote:
-Tangential question: Since armor is predominantly Predators we should think of a 4-6 sized formation.


Yeah it would be nice to have a tougher armour formation to offset weaknesses. Similar to above, how about rolling changing vindicator upgrade to "Armoury Support" and allowing 1-2 vindicators or predators to be added to the unit. Then you could have potentially a 6 strong pred formation, 6 strong vindicators, a mix of both as well as either attached to the clan or some detachments.

Quote:
-I think we're onto something with the "custom" titans. I don't want to go whole hog on the AMTL build-your-own titan structure but perhaps we can pick 2 load outs per titan class and put them in the list? I will point out that in the original EA book alternative Warlord loadouts existed for friendly play.


I was thinking of an upgrade that allows some of the customisation of the AMTL list but doesn't allow access to all the specialist AMTL stuff.
EG:
"scout titan weapons" - "replace any Vulcan Mega Bolter or Plasma Blast Gun with an Inferno Gun or Turbo Laser Destructor" - +25pts per TLD

"Battle titan weapons" - "Replace any turbo laser destructor, gatling blaster, multiple rocket launcher with a turbo laser destructor, gattling blaster, multiple rocket launcher, plasma cannon, Titan CCW, melta cannon etc..."

And finally "Support titan weapons" - "Replace Volcanno cannon with Quake cannon, Plasma destructor, Deathstrike?"

Basically use the AMLT costing to allow you to swap out within similar price brackets. This limits the crazy stuff like arty titans and too many of the top tier weapons.

Quote:
-The more I cogitate on flyers the more I like the use of TBrick Interdictor and Bomber units. They're already baked, tested, and competitive. We can then free up some "slots" for more unique units


Cool, lets try it.


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:28 am 
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A little late as usual but everything looks good. :)

The mixed terminator weapons makes much more sense now so lets keep them?
Like the "assault transport" idea.

Not sure they need the armor buff since they got extra razorbacks. I rather have landraiders to the whole clan than 4-6 predators but I'm OK with testing both options of course :)

Need to look a little more on the AMTL list but we need to limit the options to 1-2 per titan formation in my point of view or else we end up with a "titan-list"

Nice progress!!!


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:23 pm 
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So for titan variations I am going to propose some variations (grouped by each class) starting with the Warlord

Codex Stats (for reference):

Warlord Titan 825points
WE 15cm 4+ 2+ 3+
2x Turbolaser Destructor 60cm 4x AP5+/AT3+, Fwd
Gatling Blaster 60cm 4x AP4+/AT4+, Fwd
Volcano Cannon 90cm MW2+, TK(D3), Fwd

Damage Capacity 8. 6 Void Shields. Critical Hit Effect: The Warlord’s plasma reactor has been damaged. Roll a D6 for the Warlord in the end phase of every turn: on a roll of 1 the reactor explodes destroying the Warlord, on a roll of 2-3 the Warlord suffers one more point of damage, and on a roll of 4-6 the reactor is repaired and will cause no further trouble. If the reactor explodes, any units within 5cms of the Warlord will be hit on a roll of 4+.

Notes: Fearless, Reinforced Armour, Thick Rear Armour. Walker. May step over units and impassable or dangerous terrain that is lower than the Titan’s knees and up to 2cm wide.
==============================

Variant #1 (Taken straight from the EA book):

WARLORD CLASS BATTLE TITAN Mars pattern, Deathstrike Weapon Configuration 875points
WE 15cm 4+ 2+ 3+
Rocket Launcher 60cm 3BP Fixed Forward Arc +25
Deathstrike missile Unlimited MW2+ One Shot, Titan Killer (D6)+75
Gatling Blaster 60cm 4 x AP4+/AT4+ Forward Arc+25
Power Fist (base contact) Assault weapon Extra Attack (+1), Titan Killer (D6) +25

Variant #2 (Stolen from Vaaish)

WARLORD CLASS BATTLE TITAN 925points
WE 15cm 4+ 2+ 3+
2x Plasma Destructor 75cm 4x mw2+, Slow Firing
2x Turbo-laser Destructor 60cm 4x ap5+ / at3+

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:53 pm 
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And some Reavers=>

Reaver Titan 650 points
WE 20cm 4+ 3+ 3+
2x Turbolaser Destructor 60cm 4x AP5+/AT3+, Fwd
Rocket Launcher 60cm 3BP, FxF

DC6, 4 Void Shield, Fearless, Reinforced Armour, Walker
May step over units and impassable or dangerous terrain that is lower than the
Titan’s knees and up to 2cm wide. Critical Hit Effect: Roll a D6 in the end phase of
every turn. 1: Reactor explodes - Destroyed, 2-3: an extra point DC, 4-6: Reactor repaired.


Reaver Titan 675 points
WE 20cm 4+ 3+ 3+
Melta Cannon, FxF
30cm MW2+,TK(D3)
(15cm) EA(+1), TK(d6)

2x Gatling Blaster 60cm 4x ap4+ / at4+, Fwd

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:03 pm 
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And finally, Warhounds

We'll take the two variations available=>

Warhound Titan 1 Warhound Titan 275 points
Warhound Titan Pack 2 Warhound Titans 500 points

Vulcan Megabolter 45cm 4x ap3+ / at5+
Plasma Blastgun 45cm 2x mw2+, Slow Firing

OR

Inferno Gun 30cm 3bp, Ignores Cover
Turbo-laser Destructor 60cm 4x ap5+ / at3+ +25 pts. for this option

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:03 am 
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Hey JZ,

I like the warhounds, I'm not sure on the Reavers & Warlords. I think you should either use the commonly available variants OR go for distict differences within the classes.

Going by those available for the Reavers that would give you:

2x TLD, + Rocket Launcher (SG variant)
Rocket Launcher + Gatling Blaster + volcano Cannon (FW variant 1); (not greatly different?)
3x Rocket Launcher ( FW variant 2)

Whilst going for role variants within the clases should give you something like a Long range spt, standard & close support/assalt titan.

To compare this with your ones above, Variant 2 Warlord seems to be fairly similar to the standard in terms of its role. Both the standard and variant 1 are good Tank/SHT/Titan killers. Perhaps a anti horde or barrage weapon variant? say 2 quake cannons and some VMBs or laser burner?

To follow this on to the Reavers, for the second reaver you could swap in a chain/power fist instead of a gatling blaster to make an assault class focused Titan. Just a thought anyhow.

I guess testing will tell... as for testing, CAL and I are playing 30k stuff at the moment so might be a while yet :)


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:48 pm 
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I had totally forgotten about the triple Apoc Launcher version they used to sell. Plenty of those walking around and 9BP is nothing to poo poo

Personally I detest CCW Titans, total waste of time points IMO for most armies (AMTL excepting) unless you're in a specific scenario other than GT. Somewhat like battleships in the real world, the entire point of existing was to counter other side's battleships and then they were too expensive to end up risking (equivalent to BTS).

For Reavers=>
Reaver Titan 650 points
WE 20cm 4+ 3+ 3+
2x Turbolaser Destructor 60cm 4x AP5+/AT3+, Fwd
Rocket Launcher 60cm 3BP, FxF

OR

Reaver Titan, Support Pattern 650 points
WE 20cm 4+ 3+ 3+
2x Rocket Launcher 60cm 3BP, Fwd
Rocket Launcher 60cm 3BP, FxF

DC6, 4 Void Shield, Fearless, Reinforced Armour, Walker
May step over units and impassable or dangerous terrain that is lower than the
Titan’s knees and up to 2cm wide. Critical Hit Effect: Roll a D6 in the end phase of
every turn. 1: Reactor explodes - Destroyed, 2-3: an extra point DC, 4-6: Reactor repaired.

For Warlord unless someone brings forth a reason to not go with the Deathstrike (which was published by GW itself in the original book) let's call it good on that topic.

Going once, twice, ...

PS. Attached is the above suggestions incorporated (sans Titan discussion). I'm starting to want to drop bikes and move the scouts to restricted.
Attachment:
Iron Hands Chapter Army List.pdf [633.98 KiB]
Downloaded 172 times

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:57 pm 
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I was thinking about a simple weaponswap for the titans but this will do also :)

The restricted list is kind of full, can the bike/scout change wait? I think we have focused on making a list that feels right and if we get the titans right we have a list that has some IH-feel.
I think the list is ready for some playtesting? I'm kind of worried of how it will handle certain matchups, artillerybased armies and swarms without tanks for example.
The SM usually is a very mobile army but without thunderhawks and teleporting terminators it will be harder to take out enemies far away and with the anti-tank devastators the non-mechanized swarm will cheer :)

So after a lot of words why not do some playtesting and see where the IH:s weakness is and then arm the titans to counter this. (With lots of deathstrikes ;) )

/Uven


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:11 am 
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The Iron Hands suffered their first defeat yesterday, the main reason was their commanders lack of strategic skill :{[]
We played a 3000p battle against a IG Steel Legion. I won't leave a full report but some reflections.

I drop podded(?) with a Clan and a Phalanx but due to some strange setup and activation maneuvering they were eventually ambushed and without support. I had a clan with veterans (and a supreme commander) they were fun and felt good. Due to the cost I only took one option, perhaps this was a mistake as they became my BTS with just 6 infantry stands...
The dreadnoughts with a Venerable and a mix of weapons is really good, need to buy more of them, I currently only own enough to field one Phalanx. In close combat they will be a feared opponent with lots of MW attacks and up to two inspiring characters.

The heavy infantry was outmaneuvered. :( I played them as ordinary devastators so it was my fault as they came up against infantry with a lot of AT shots...lesson learned until next time.

I fielded two Warhounds and the weapon mix seemed good. Ended up chasing infantry so perhaps something in that direction?

Airplanes :) I haven't seen any of the Thunderhawks before but:
Bomber, you get "bombs" (2BP IC) and sacrifices the ability to be a transporter and still get to pay 50p more? Why would anyone take this? (Perhaps as an flying AA umbrella?)
Interdictor, here you get to pay 100p for 3 AT shoots more. This one might get some action but do the Iron hands need them or will they field a warhound instead?
Some minor issues:
Why aren't thy aircraft? (I assume it's a typo but their type states WE not AC)
Why do nobody use the same abbreviations? :) FFw means fixed forward fire arc (FxF) or Forward Fire Arc (FwA)?

Flesh is weak, I never used this. The assaults I initiated were in my favor and when it was needed I was not the active player. Think we need to change this a little to make it something you can use. Perhaps make it useful in the opponents turn as I suggested earlier :)

Scouts can't field razorbacks

On a whole this army feels like it will have a hard time reaching artillery and other "first turn kills" (read vultures) without terminators and several Thunderhawks. I can live with that as they soon will have bombards to counter this ::)
The larger Clans will be sparse due to activations. Perhaps make the 2 options mandatory if we want to. Also the cost seems a little bit high. You get no benefit for taking a larger unit, other armies usually get some discount when they buy companies right?
Heavy infantry looks good but perhaps make them 300p see above.
Razorbacks didn't quite make it this time. Only fielded one to make the points even so no larger impact here...

Next time I want more veterans and more dreadnoughts! (And an opponent that setup their artillery where I want to :) )

/uven


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