uvenlord wrote:
Hi, nice to see the Iron Hands get some love
Yes my feelings too (even if my marines are painted as Bullheaded dudes). It's even better to see the list get some love from you all! Thanks for the interest!
This will be a long reply. Get coffee. heh
uvenlord wrote:
I will playtest the army as soon as I have done some modifications to my current IH army to fit this list. (played them as a vanilla SM up until now) Until then I have some comments on the list. Don't take them too hard, I think on the whole the list is good
No go hard on it. We want quality lists for people to play with! However the gentle way you put it is of course appreciated
uvenlord wrote:
I think the alternate list looks better so that is what I've read.
My personal preference as well. Wanted to get some general feedback on the variations.
uvenlord wrote:
Why are there so many special rules and stats? To me this looks more like an separate army list not a chapter list. You catch the "Iron Hands feeling" perfectly well with the different formations (Clans) etc. No need to have that many special units in my opinion.
Three parts for this answer.
1. We're looking at 2 of the 3 special rules to make it into the developmental list version. We're trying out bionics to see if it fits. Realistically the difficulties in modeling this with the E:A abstraction means we're learning more towards Cult of the Machine and Flesh is Weak vs Bionics right now. If you have ideas in this area I'd love to get them out for discussion, no matter how radical they are. Go crazy. That's why we're in Experimental status right now.
2. There's only 3 special versions of an established unit. Razorback, Devastator, and Venerable Dreadnought. That's a number that is pretty much in line with most variant lists (Salamanders, Scion of Iron, etc). Perhaps you are referring instead to some of the unique units, some of which I think can get dropped/collapsed (See aspriant below). Others are renamed units to fit the fluff (Vet Officiers == Terminators, Iron Father == Chaplin)
3. "separate army list not a chapter list" as in not Marines but a new faction? I want to make sure that's the underlying connotation here.. Yes it has (or should have
) the Astartes feel but the Iron Hands are actually one of the most non-codex chapters out there, only eclipsed by the Space Wolves. Naturally this is going to be one of the more radical departures from the Codex list. I want to make sure I address and discuss this specifically as this sounds like a good conversation to have. Let's start a distinct entry so you can explain in a little more detail on this topic from the rest of this reply and the inevitable retort I encourage you to make
uvenlord wrote:
In the beginning it states that this army will provide reasons to take dreadnoughts. I'm a big dread fan, and usually fields them in my army even if the are not the best option so that sounded really nice but when I look at the list I don't really see any more reason to take the dreads than in a regular army. What am I missing?
Basically the way this list is built up it naturally leads towards deploying as a Drop Pod assault force. The formations tend to be mixed arms and usually they fare worse than more dedicated style of formations (The lack of Land Raiders outside of schleping Terminators for instance). Couple that with the Inspiring ability on the Dreds (why they are IH Venerable Dred vs just Venerable Dred in the unit list) and then invoke FiW makes them an assault nightmare to deal with-Even if you win, you're likely going to have to deal with them next turn. Dropping two clans, prep with blastmarkers, engaging with one and having the other in position for supporting fire + inspiring is a nasty force to reckon with (especially if you can catch the enemy with a clipping assault). If they've got good cover then trying to shift them is going to a B*** which usually derails an opponents forward momentum as they start responding to the pace of battle you're setting. Now of course when things go wrong with that style they go wrong BIGger than the Codex list.
uvenlord wrote:
I'm not that good at Iron Hands fluff but read some but can't figure out why they need SM aircraft. It would be nice with some Storm talons but right now the Space marine army list need to borrow thunderbolts but Iron Hands don't, that's a little strange...
Basically in the fluff, the Iron Hands refuse to operate with any other force under any circumstances. They have contempt for other Marines and absolutely detest the Imperial Navy and Guard and refuse to fight along side either. If there's a pure Marine list out there, it's going to be this one. A secondary concern was to have a "safety valve" of a list for those that are wanting said pure Astartes list to prevent any discussion of trying to introduce Talons say into the Codex list which if you remember was a topic of much contention last year. Also it allowed somewhere were workable battle tested stats for those interested in them to get hashed out with actual reports instead of the opinion-war that that discussion devolved into. Lastly, I like them
We're not wedded to having them in the list. There's been discussion of dropping air power and balancing with improved AA options for the list instead to compensate.
uvenlord wrote:
Really like the Clan formations, nice feel with a mixture of units
Thanks. They're unexpectedly fun to play with!
uvenlord wrote:
I would move the Restricted formations to the end of the list, like someone said before in this thread. Core - Detachment - Restricted - Upgrades.
Already done in the next draft. Waiting on a few more bat-reps and input before we publish. I don't want too much churn with entire versions getting published and replaced before anyone even played with them.
uvenlord wrote:
Light Recon - They feel really expensive. Not sure why I would like to take them in any army... Without Infiltrate the are not that good at attacking and at this size and points they are an expensive screen. Also it feels very unnecessary to have both recon tactical and aspirants. Not much difference between the two. Like the IH feel of the recon tactical. I would cut the two aspirants and keep the rest...
They're the least baked formation at the moment. I've been able to pull off wins by pulling some crazy shenanigans with them (they're able to garrison with dreds after all) but I'm thinking that's a proverbial one trick pony. With the newer, well actually older, fluff in the WH30k books they've got recon tactical squads available instead of modern scouts. Are you thinking to push more that way?
uvenlord wrote:
Iron Hands Upgrades:
Quote:
(Up to two upgrades may be taken Iron Hands detachment or once per Clan. No upgrade may be taken more than once. The Great Council Retinue does not count towards this total)
This sounds weird. 2 upgrades per detachment and 1 per Clan?
My attempt to gently lead people to not building lists that are even more hopelessly out activated than the IH already play with. I'm starting to think it's not really needed and would simply fall under cavet emptor myself. Remove and set at 2 or only at 1 for everything?
uvenlord wrote:
Cult of the Machine: I like the touch but with this rule I will never take any venerable dreadnoughts. The formation its in and probable one or two more gets blast markers when it dies, no thank you Perhaps only extra blastmarker on the formation its in?
It's for the afore mentioned drop assault where AT/AP fire is not differentiated and you can soak up hits with infantry if needed. Of course then you lose the Inspiring but you can always take regular dreds instead (or in addition). You're right that 2BM is heavy and perhaps making them suboptimal. How I've played them generally was in that game changing assault that tends to determine the course of the rest of the game so I've not felt that pain. Another idea is to apply that to Titans only.
uvenlord wrote:
Flesh is weak: sounds fun, perhaps extend it to be used when they are assaulted as well?
Interesting. How would we word that? "Must be declared immediately before taking an engage action or when engaged, before activation roll"?
uvenlord wrote:
Bionics: No fan of this rule. I would very much like some bionics but this will make them too good. Veterans will have 3+ reinforced save. Probably the best save in the game? How about giving them Thick rear armour instead, not in the same league but with the same feel? Or making the characters have reinforced armour instead of invulnerable saves. (captain, Librarian and chaplain)
Yeah it's the one most likely to end up cut. Irony is that as an approach it works perfectly to the mechanics of Netepic - Orton's chasing this one up [hint hint hint]
My regular Steel Legion opponent threw out an interesting idea about bionics being an ambient ability negating the additional BM from taking the first loss in crossfire. Another idea for consideration.
uvenlord wrote:
Iron father looks very much like the Chaplain
Irony?
uvenlord wrote:
IH Devastator, please change them back to 2xAT5+ simpler and with the right feel.
Was an attempt to provide some AP for them. I got my ass handed to me with a swarm list of Guardians and Guard in a few early test games actually because I couldn't put out enough AP in the game to slow them down! You're thinking Tact with pure AP and devs with pure AT is the way to go?
uvenlord wrote:
Dreadnought please make two separate rows, one for the Hellfire and one for the Tactical. Never figured out why the predators gets two rows but not the dreads
I actually agree with what you say regarding this but until the higher ups decide to split the Hellfire and Tactical Dreds in the Codex list I'm going to follow the established format. Otherwise more of the custom units we describe above have to added to account for the differences by convention.
uvenlord wrote:
Predator Annihilator twin lascannon is stated as AT6+ typo? (should be AT4+?)
Completely. Somewhere above I noted the typo in the published list.
uvenlord wrote:
Razorbacks, do we need the heavy bolter option? The plasma/lascannon feels a much more viable option.
Orton dug up interesting fluff the the IH actually are Razorback junkies. I've been thinking of how we can encourage their use and hopefully the plasma/las option adds flavor. As the Bolter option was in the Codex List (and just about everywhere else) I am curious as to why you feel it's best to remove the option?
uvenlord wrote:
The mobile fortress looks really fun! Not sure its worth the 900 points but I will start building one anyhow
Yeah I really just wanted to bring out my old CapImp model from the display case and have a reason to play with it. I figure we'll start high and adjust down if needed. It's been harder to get people to accept price increases then decreases historically.
uvenlord wrote:
This became a long rant, sorry. On the whole I give the list a big thumbs up!!! (just needs some tweaking)
No not at all! This is great information and I'm glad you took time to comment. I've given some insight into the reasoning to many points above. PLEASE poke holes in them! Debate vigorously and with passion!
uvenlord wrote:
Also my sentimental side wants the bombards back in the list... (I will be fielding mine as Whirlwind proxies until then)