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[NetEA] Iron Hands (Experimental)

 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:08 am 
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Simulated Knave wrote:
You don't want to give the Iron Hands the Ironclad Dreadnought?

You'd never make it as a GW employee. ;)


Nonono, see, it has to be a custom Iron Hands Ironator Dreadnought. It comes with a special Iron Fist close combat weapon (really just a dreadnought CCW, but we have to name it something special otherwise it's not unique enough), and a Pig Iron Cannon that rapid-fires half meter-long solid slugs of iron (heavy 3, maybe heavy 4). The kit includes alternative model parts to build an Iron Hands Iron Ascendant Dreadnought paired Iron Fists with underslung graviton guns because game balance. May take 1-3 assault CenturIrons (Iron Hands Centurions) as a command squad, and they work like Tyranid Tyrant Guard, soaking shots for the Dreadnought.

Hold on, I think Nottingham's calling me...

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:30 am 
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I'm not gonna lie, I'd play that.

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:34 am 
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That is the most awesome thing anyone has ever said about anything

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:32 pm 
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Goofiness and humor aside, after looking at the list, I could see adding multi-melta dreadnoughts to the list, or the Ironclad.

In particular, I could see using an Iron Hands Clan formation +2 Ironclads in a Thunderhawk as a loose equivalent to the assault/devastator Thunderhawk combo drop, and/or as an alternative to adding a pair of Veteran Officers units (you're still getting +1 MW in CC at 3+, and reinforced armor, but in this case the Ironclad has 3+ base). Melta dreadnoughts wouldn't really be ALL that useful attached to a tactical formation as they'd be parking their 3+ reinforced armor in firefight range to maximize the MW effect. That said, everyone has access to melta dreads (sorta), and Ironclads would require converting, but I'm not sure that's much of an issue. Ironclads in the dreadnought formation would also allow for building Ironclad/Hellfire combinations to maximize assault value, once you got in range.

Of course, the issue there is you start overlapping pretty heavily with some of the Siege-oriented experimental lists, but I'm not sure how much of a problem that would be.

Note: I'm assuming Ironclads would be included as one of the types you'd be able to designate a dreadnought as when attaching it to a formation. Making them a separate attachment of 1 (or 1-2) would permit a player to pile up 2 dreadnoughts, a venerable, and then 1-2 Ironclads on top of that, at which point you could end up with more dreadnoughts in a formation than infantry, and could render the dreadnought phalanx superfluous.

Edit: Overall, I think the Ironclad would offer more to Iron Hands formations than the Melta. Melta forces you to pick between stopping in FF range or pushing the dread into CC to maximize its effectiveness, while the Ironclad is more limited, but perhaps more useful, in a couple of deployment permutations.

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:32 am 
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I like the Ironclad for this list, and it keeps the Salamanders list special for Vulcan variant and Siege vanguard for Siege Dread.

Sorry I haven't helped much of late on this list. Dare I say it but 40k is consuming my small amount of hobby time lately.. yes yes "hiss and booo" to you to.

Looking forward to the new FW HH book though.


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:12 am 
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Guessing the Ironclad would be nice... Making the dreadnought phalanx very tough.
6 Ironclad and a venerable entering orbit :)
ortron wrote:
Looking forward to the new FW HH book though.
Will be fun to see if they sort the "lots of bionics/dreadnoughts" and "close friends to the Mechanicum" vs no terminatos, dreadnoughts and landraiders fluff out. Right now it feels as if several authers made up the fluff without reading the others work...


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:54 am 
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ortron wrote:
Right now it feels as if several authers made up the fluff without reading the others work...

What? No! ImPossible! ..

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:23 pm 
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Ok here's the incorporated 3rd Dread option. I agree, let's keep the Sallies unique snowflakes and nab the Siege variant for the list. This gives options for long range firepower, a generalist option, and CC/Anti Personnel centric unit and seems a nice set of capabilities.

NOTE: Superseded by this version
Attachment:
Iron Hands Chapter Army List.pdf [640.6 KiB]
Downloaded 221 times

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:53 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
uvenlord wrote:
*Why two warlords instead of following the other titans with weapon options?

The original book had titan variations listed under new stats. The Deathstrike config was taken verbatim from there though priced from the latest AMTL list costs. I want to take the other two titans and move them from options to separate stat lines but just haven't come up with a good name yet. Now taking suggestions.


Well in the rulebook the very similar build is named:
Reaver Class Battle Titan: Lucius Pattern, Standard Weapon Configuration (this build have one turbo-laser and one gatling blaster...)
Reaver Class Battle Titan: Lucius Pattern, Fire Support Weapon Configuration (this build has 3 rocket Launchers with Fixed Forward = almost the same)
Warhound Class Scout Titan: Lucius Pattern, Standard Weapon Configuration (identical)
Warhound Class Scout Titan: Lucius Pattern, Inferno Weapon Configuration (identical but the inferno gun had MW ;) )

So a new name for the "Standard" Reaver and we are set My name suggestion is Anti-tank Weapon Config? (or if we change the weapon load we can keep the name :) )

Guessing the "Lucius Pattern" part refer to the ForgeWorld look, but I'm not sure...


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:41 pm 
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Yes Lucius is the FW of origin of hte specific design (generally cosmetic at the abstraction of 40k and above - which means everything)

I'm good with those names.

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:09 pm 
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Finally split the titans into separate stat lines / names. Going to play test the +disrupt suggestion going on in Ad Mech land on AML. Latest proposed version

NOTE: Superseded by version in OP
Attachment:
Iron Hands Chapter Army List.pdf [646.76 KiB]
Downloaded 195 times


note: arty reaver should be +25 points

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:37 am 
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Given the new stuff for iron hands in the marine codex there is a little more support for that invulnerable save from a bionic upgrade idea or at least on those vets and dreads. I think this is coming along pretty good now


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:34 am 
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I play against Uvenlords Iron Hands quite often and as an opponent I can say that i think you could give an Inv save to alo of units without making the list OP. I think they actually need something like that to make up for he loss of air assaults and the cost of their expensive formations.

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:35 pm 
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Some reflections and wishes for the list :)

Why would I choose the new Ironclad Dreadnought? It is good for killing infantry in cover 15 cm away but I do not really see the use in an army other than that. Am I missing something?

Why is the veteran officers in a clan at a discount? (125p compared to 150p if you buy them as upgrades)

The clans is to expensive. You are forced to buy a commander even in squads that do not need them and you must pay full price...

Move the Thunderhawk back to the normal list (not restricted) the list lack the normal assault+dev units anyhow so right now they are only limiting the Titans and is forcing the army to drop pod instead of loading the Hawks with Dreadnoughts :)

Change the veterans back to terminators without teleport (and make them cheaper.)

To buy the "great council retinue" means the clan will cost a minimum of 475 points and the unit you got will be needing some wheels (625p) or a drop pod (+200p strike cruiser) or it will be a very expensive blitzguard.
The Dreadnought Phalanx is a little cheaper at 400 points...
As I usually struggle with the number of activations perhaps we should let the normal marines be Supreme Commanders again?

What is your experience with this army and when and how do we enter the "development" status?


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:27 pm 
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uvenlord wrote:
Why would I choose the new Ironclad Dreadnought? It is good for killing infantry in cover 15 cm away but I do not really see the use in an army other than that. Am I missing something?

Pest control armies. Admittedly this is totally armchair general action going on here but we're looking at this with traditionally difficult to move from cover INF armies (orks and guard come to mind). It's not been tested much here but has in other lists so we dumped it in here to see how it goes.

uvenlord wrote:
Why is the veteran officers in a clan at a discount? (125p compared to 150p if you buy them as upgrades)

Further emphasis on the Clan formation. Vet Officers may need an additional discount globally but we need to test some more before we do that.

uvenlord wrote:
The clans is to expensive. You are forced to buy a commander even in squads that do not need them and you must pay full price...

The first part I can follow, the second I an not sure what you mean. Explain? You get a free CH in a Clan so I am not sure what the deal with that is. I guess it can be removed from your force provided an opponent agrees. The Commander has leader which greatly assists in shedding BM which is intended to help the Clan formation weather storms of fire directed at them and fits the grim fluff of these Cads. Since this list will be usually out activated, being able to shrug off BM is going to be important.

uvenlord wrote:
Move the Thunderhawk back to the normal list (not restricted)

Might as well just play Codex list then if you're wanting the air-mobile playstyle. And that's a totally valid point mind you. Perhaps there's not enough to justify this list or it is fundamentally unstable under the rules and not worth existing (outside of Fanlist or specific scenario status).

uvenlord wrote:
the list lack the normal assault+dev units anyhow so right now they are only limiting the Titans

Assault formation exists unchanged from the codex list but you're right in that they are a core formation. The heavy infantry is basically the devastator formation with some tactical bullet catchers. Perhaps a bulk discount is needed?

uvenlord wrote:
is forcing the army to drop pod instead of loading the Hawks with Dreadnoughts :)

Well that IS somewhat the theme of the list after all, Astartes Drop Assault :D

uvenlord wrote:
Change the veterans back to terminators without teleport (and make them cheaper.)

They are exactly that. If the name is irritating then we can instead call it Iron Hands Terminator. Can't really justify them cheaper (already at a discount from the Codex entry). Am I mis-understanding something?

uvenlord wrote:
To buy the "great council retinue" means the clan will cost a minimum of 475 points and the unit you got will be needing some wheels (625p) or a drop pod (+200p strike cruiser) or it will be a very expensive blitzguard.
The Dreadnought Phalanx is a little cheaper at 400 points...

Perhaps the +LR Transport on the retinue needs to be included in the price for free (or sharply discounted) thus not penalizing the force for podding in the SC Clan (after all that's the theme, right? Sounds daft to penalize when you play fluffy :D ). I personally find them invaluable in holding the center of a board typically (play styles vary of course).

uvenlord wrote:
As I usually struggle with the number of activations perhaps we should let the normal marines be Supreme Commanders again?

Que?

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