OK as to trying to find a bionics rule or representation that works I've basically come to the conclusion: It doesn't. The best that comes is a Clan formation being granted TRA. And that has issues as well (the INF should have it, not the Rhinos but that's cludgy it feels)

Vet Officers I felt was a noble experiment but doesn't really work IMO. The separate Morlock formation is something I feel uneasy about, the flavor of the list being that the Termies are embedded in the formations. I'm apt to include it still but make it so that is has SC (and the +100 cost) and make it 0-1. I don't want to give them teleport as this list has above average arty for a marine list in the Support Reaver (with 9BP + Disrupt) and the larger WW formations. The list needs to balance the ability to spread out to not get bombed to death without getting instead teleported to death.

I want to ditch Vet Officers and return to the embedded termies as a single stand. As a buff we could add leader.

I also want to swap the auto CH from the Clan to be instead a Captain. It's a no-brainer to put a Chappy always. I want that to be an explicit choice that you need to make to find +50 for the best CH in the marine arsenal. With that, I guess the Libby can return though I honestly doubt it will often be taken but that's a general thing with Marines anyways.

thoughts on the above rant?

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Interesting. I'd love to see the OpFor list in the Orks. That's one race no one in the local area plays whatsoever.

On the surface I might have taken the support reaver and laid down the monster barrages. makes a big bullet catcher which can mean that your other formations go unmolested. If they ignore it then you just walk it up the center of the table and plop it down to support everything else.


OK enough theory crafting. I need to start the Superbowl festivities. It's basically the American National Religion, if we were to have one.

cheers

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OK, my 5 cents in random order...
Why not ditch the bionics rule then for now at least? If we return to the embedded terminators they could fluffwise be a mix of terminator veterans and bionic veterans that equals a terminator stand minus teleport
Not sure I like the captain thing, isn't Iron Fathers the way to go for the Iron Hands? (and in epic they would be very similar to the Iron(y) Chaplain...)
Your thoughts on the mobile fortress sounds good, need to look up the reference though.
IF we are to include a "Great Council" with Morlocks or something similar the 0-1 limitation and including the Supreme Commander sounds fair.

One more thing that is more like a wish, when do we think this build is stable?
Right now we do a lot of changes and it would be fun to know that some of my models will be making the cut. (For example right now I have made 3 stands with Iron Fathers and another 4 with a mix of terminators and marines to use as veteran officers and 15 or so dreadnoughts. Not the usual Codex setup...)
So what do you all think is the "core" units that we only need to change cost or small things on and what are the experimental stuff?
To me the dreadnought phalanx, clan with mixed units, heavy infantry with AT and specialized titians is "core units". (also the absence of teleporting terminators and the not so frequent thunderhawks is vital to the feel/build)
I think the Mobile fortress is experimental. Not sure about the storm talons, I still like the ordinary planes so they are experimentalish to me.

Oh and Orton, pictures or it didn't happen

ok pics soon. I promise.

What I did manage last night was another 3k battle against ork speed freaks. Both of us were pretty tired from a big week at work so we were into our second turn before I remembers I was supposed to be tracking activations etc. And in the end we had to call time at the end of the 3rd turn with the iron hands up 1:0. A 4th turn would have likely seen the IH go to a 2 or 3:0 win result but alas the clock beat us both.

I took a more balanced force this time, IMO, and it was a lot more fun to play.
Clan + tacticals + Hunter + LR + razorbacksx4
Dreadnoughtsx4 + Chaplain
Heavy Infantry + Hunter
Whirlwinds + hunter
Vindicators
Landspeeders
Thunderhawk
Warhound Pair
Warhound single.

I moved little in the first and 2nd turns, basically trying to thin the horde of ork LV trying to surround me. I decided to keep the dreadnoughts in the thunderhawk and used it for ground attacks turns 1 & 2, due to the huge number of ork activations I wasn't prepared to commit it to an air assault as I assumed it would have been rolled by follow-on ork formations. By turn 3 the little ork formations were mostly broken and the iron hands were ready to advance but a failed strategy roll allowed the orks to get the jump on me and kill the vindicators and break the warhound pair in their opening moves. After that I managed to hang onto Defend the Flag and almost got Blitz but the orks 3 formations of fighta bombers saw off my landspeeders screening the thunderhawk and dreads on the ork blitz and then a small unit of orks was able to march backwards to contest the blitz. Had we gone to a 4th I think its likely I could have grabbed blitz again and maybe BTS as the mob wasn't too far off being wiped out.

In hindsight I should have gone harder for BTS, usually I don't bother with orks as its some enormous ork warband that is impossible to kill but the speed freak formations are a lot more vulnerable and I probably should have dropped the dreadnoughts off on turn two to cause more dramas in the ork backline earlier. The dreadnoughts didn't achieve much for me but had they been in the fight their 4 + 5MW attacks would have been great for ripping into ork trucks and buggies... oh well next time.

Thoughts:
Clan formations can get expensive very quickly but its probably worthwhile keeping most of them cheap otherwise activations drop off drastically.

Heavy infantry, whilst similar to devastators, take some extra effort to be effective due to AT only firepower, in saying that, using an advance or double to fire on enemy armour and then provide spt fire to a warhound or speeders that are engaging seemed to be a more effective use of their capabilities. I was only able to sustain fire with them once, but they did provide a good deterrent on turn 1 sitting on hill on OW protecting my flank.

I didn't miss my usual massed landraiders as much as I thought I would, in fact, the addition of warhounds has made for a much more competitive list.

nice to see some movements on this list. Just o couple of friendly questions:

Did you know you were up against speed freaks when you chose this list?

Do you often skip the Supreme Commander? I have played without him but then I started to look at the cost vs what happened without him and now he is in every build. Most of the time my biggest clan or similar would roll 1 when activated (and have blastmarkers) and my opponents would cheer as 600p moved into cover instead of smashing something up

Looks like you have more than 1/3 of restricted formations. Intentional or a misstake?

Did you use any of the special rules? Bionic, Machine cult.

/Uven

yeah those land speeders bump you over the restricted limit

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Oops.. sorry I've been a very naughty boy.. the extra formations were my fault, seems I missed that as the thunderhawk were a late change and I originally had two clans + the dreadnoughts.
To explain further, both games I've had with this list have been relatively short notice with a list thrown together on the spot and I'm trying to play with mostly painted figures, and I haven't painted many IH specific formations yet. I almost always take a supreme commander so this was also due to an oversight in list creation. If you have some specific units or combinations of units you want trialed, let me know and I'll attempt to get them into our next game, along with a detail battle report.

As for my opponents list build, I knew it would be a form of orks but not the particular brand. His usual force includes a couple of landers so I took lots of hunters. As it turns out they helped deal with the 10 fighta bombers he brought.

Now a Q for you guys, why does the support reaver get disrupt on its rockets when the other titans with a MRL don't? further didn't this come up in the AMTL development threads a while back and get shouted down? I have a titan with this loadout and will probably use it in a coming game, just want to make sure its not overpowered before I take it for spin.

I'm actually trying to trial it out here and get some batreps re said shouting match in AMTL land. The theory hammer is strong there.

I'd love to see 4 scouts and 6 unit strong whirlwind on table with a 2 tact heavy clans and 3 dred phalanx pod'd in. Round out the rest in armor formations. Be interesting to see about how starting the army mainly off board with macro CC spam. I think Guard will have a tough time with this. Orks not as much though I expect. I did something like that against the IF but that was just bloody attrition and barely worth batreping. Thinking of it now, that was basically the IH strategy at the drop site massacre, wasn't it?

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Here is my next build, not sure its the final one but something like this

Clan + veterans + great council + 1 razorback AT
Whirlwinds x 6
Scouts
Dread assault talon + 1dread + 1 predator AP
Dread assault talon + 1dread + 1 predator AP
Dread assault talon + 1dread + 1 hunter
Predators AT
Warhound Support
Warhound Support
Storm Talon Gunship
(Double checked the points on restricted formations )

I havet just recently painted som predators so thats why I bring them. My friend has been busy painting orcs so I might face a horde or a Gargant mob...

I'm not doing a planetfall army for a while, last time I faced 2 reavers on overwatch with som cheezy anti SM weapons

Some feedback

So I have played 2 games giving the 6 whirlwind formation a go and they are not that good...
Perhaps I am playing them wrong but at first sight I thought:
wow!, space marine artillery now I will blow my opponent to dust...
But now I think the formation is kind of fun but I will not take it that often. The formation is very expensive and my IH list is always struggling to get enough activations. The formation is relatively easy to kill (compared to other SM units in the 500 points area) I tend to play aggressively and want to be able to attack the enemy before it activates, 90 cm range is not enough so I need to move or fire at the "wrong" formation.
So since everybody is so excited about whirlwinds, how do I use them

The dreadnought phalanx is a fun and an all round unit that I take in every build. The 4 is a little weak but the "low" cost makes it worth while. The lack of speed is a drawback so no matter how I try and abuse them they don't feel overpowered. The Ironclad only has FF4+ in this list, in other lists it has 3+, is that intentional?

The list could do with a little sorting/cleaning. The last part is all messed up, if you have the time jimmy to put characters first, then infantry and so on I (and my opponent) would be greatful

The Storm Talons works ok. Not to good anyhow, compared to the thunderbolt they are perhaps a little worse but then they have higher SR... Anybody else testing them? To me they lack the power that the Thunderbolts give me towards the end when they can hunt down lone units to cut activations.

Anybody else tested the mobile fortress? And what happened to all the other ideas about that one?

Might be an issue with the IH being able to have more than 1 unit with inspiring in a formation. Sometimes my opponent thinks it is too good, I do not your thoughts?

What I am wishing for right now is for us to focus on some of the "problems" so we get them sorted out. Right now it feels like we bring some stuff up for discussion but then the subject trails away and there is no change in the army so the issue is still there.
In my mind I recall the following "unsolved" issues:
1.The special rule
2.Titan weaponry (reaver?)
3. Morlock, veterans, great clan council or whatever (unit build and stats)
4. Mobile fortress
5. Iron father or commander in Clan
more?...

Sorry for the delay in reply. I had immediately read this and formulated a reply in my head but have been unable to sit down and simply write it out yet.


I happen to feel that WW are a suboptimal choice in general with Marines, esp at 3k. They are a bit overpriced for what you get. However that's something you find all 'round. I expect that some attention is going to be presented to them in the next year that would likely see some changes. Tactically, I find them best used against Guard and hoard chaos opponents for the classic reason to force them to spread out which is the only way Marines are going to be able to take them on, especially with clipping assaults. Add in the Orbital Bombardment of Strike Craft and they synergize a bit more. I aslo find them invaluable against Eldar opponents which tend to shoot and hide back out of LOS where Indirect comes into play. Totally worthless against armour based opponents and Orks I suspect as they pretty much shrug off just about anything at that BV. I have played around with the idea of a 25 point drop to test in general if they might be worth a faction wide reassessment. In short, the problem tends to be WW in general vs this list itself. Any ideas?


It is so? That'd be a typo then. Until the next PDF, consider them 3+. Good catch.


Not sure what you are referring to. The unit stats are pretty much in the same order as the Codex Marines list as much as is possible. I'm totally happy to order in any way you want however so just let me know.


They are in use with the Space Puppies IIRC and the SotE. Are you taking them as interceptors or with the Typhoon Pods? I also think they need a slight boost.


I have. There's a significant rework on it in the latest. Not sure anyone else has tried it yet. It's going up against the IF tonight.


You can already put more than a single Chappy in a single formation in Codex Marines so no different here. Clans now get the automatic CH of officer only though to prevent the auto-include Chappy that the prior versions had. If you want inspiring you'll need to pay for it now.



Every one of these have been addressed in new versions and alternates of the lists (it seems you're working from older or a specific version). I haven't received any additional feedback on them in playtests since they've been redacted. Basically they are=>

1. Gone. It's rolled into the pricing of Clans / Heavy Infantry and the free Leader characters they get. EA just doesn't really work that way.
2. What about it? The first I've heard of it.
3. Morlocks: Added by popular demand. It is an option to the core Clan formation. We've left the option to see about fielding them as a dedicated formation if needed (no further feedback on that). Vets are a cheap CH providing leader (Auto -1 BM). In the similar vein as the IF Techmarine CH. That's the auto free CH provided to heavy infantry (aka IH Sternguard Vet formation). Council is now just the regular SC upgrade with specific restrictions on the unit it can be placed on.
4. Total rework using some math hammer and some inspiration from IF lists and the Stormlord unit. Think of it as a rolling bastion that allows FF and Fearless to embarked units. Behemoth cannon is a complete rework based on fluff (the cannon is wide enough to drive a Leman Russ down so it should be a big boom).
5. It's a captain now period (see above).

The biggest unknown is the Cap Imperialis which may or may not be bonkers. It seems to work about right against entrenched enemies. One of my worries is that the cannon might have gone the wrong way and should be 8BP as a area suppression weapon or 4BV MW as a concentrated shot. I twin linked the lascannons as well.

edit: typo. Should be Slow-Firing so test accordingly

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I have no life besides this so I give my reply within hours

First some fast ones:

On the Whirlwinds, I agree that its probably a general issue that is increased when you take more of them in a single formation. They are probobly too expensive but no need to fix that in this list, I propose we keep them as Codex SM.

To me the Heavy infantry is no longer any good, please bring back the 2x lascannons

And when looking for a version number on my printed armylist I found two lists one new and one old so I guess I have been playing a little of both. The old list hit the trash so it all sorted now



Its the order of the list, normally you get Cha first then Inf then LV then AV then WE... Right now the the order is messed up so its hard to find the unit you are looking for.


I have only taken the interceptor version. To me the typhoon is not worth loosing a AA shot even if it were free. Perhaps if I have a lot of hunters but I never do
In firepower the thunderbolt is slightly better in everything (perhaps not against infantry when equipped with pods) and they already pay 25p for the 1 initiative. But more important the thunderbolt has a reach of 30 cm so it can bypass some defensive AA when intercepting. Not sure we need to change anything now but in the future we might. I suggest we try them out a little longer as they are

Lets hope it rules the battlefield
I playd with the "old" rules on this one. Will give the new ones a try, but my main concern is that you put too valuable units inside doing "nothing". Outside they would almost always be faster and be able to shoot, the boost on the main gun is nice but perhaps letting the SM inside shoot would be better? Anyway will test it first...

I was not aware of Codex SM being able to take multiple Inspiring characters in a formation, what am I doing wrong?
Also I would like us to keep the Iron Father as the leader of the clan, that or replace the Captain with Veterans to make the clan cheaper. I think the Captain is the least good CHA and in my battles it is rare for me to have several units attack at once due to the low activation and the large clan formations that can take care of themselves...

And the last couple of questions


1. sorry, my fault, wrong version
2. I was just wondering if everyone felt ok with the current loadout. To me it is fine.
3. Same as 2. If I would rule the world the morlocks would have had 2xassaultcannons but... I like the Vets. My issue with the council is that in a non-drop army you get to pay around 500p for formation if you want wheels making them the BTS in most buids, no biggie lets continue
4. see 1
5. I would like it to be an Iron father but see 3.

So on the whole the list looks good and solid to me, thanks for all the hard work JZ!

When will we push toward developed? Right now I battle other development lists so I do not bother to take notes and do battlereports but when you think the list is stable enough I can probably convince some of my friends to play approved lists.

Actually I misspoke. Codex itself is 1 upgrade per Core but plenty of other Marine lists support more than a single upgrade per core and nothing restricting characters. It's just that it's better to spread them around usually so it's hard (impossible????) to abuse.

The Fortress allows half the embarked units to shoot and be targeted (count as in cover). During assaults they can use their FF. Of course you can counter charge for say Assaulters. After more though I think the behemoth cannon should be:
4BP MW OR 8BP and Slow Firing. It's a huge frikin gun that should be a beast to load but rains death on those that displease the Emperor! You can go focused and get the MW or spread it out for pest control.

^^Thoughts??^^

The MW Devs are put back in as you just can't handle RA enemies reliably whatsoever (really at all). Take the 2x AT up against the Tank Legion and you'll see my point. Wwe've pulled 6 games all punishing losses so there's something up there so there needs to be some answer. The MW helps but because its FF ranged you have to deal with getting in their face ASAP and take the incoming fire and before you can let loose (which seems rather IH when you think about it >:) ).

Dreads help somewhat but tanks run circles around them and if mis dropped then it's over for them for the game Considering the rest of the changes and issues related around range stretching I wanted to push these guys more into the FF than hunker down and shoot. Let's give it a few with the focus being the Mobile Fortress and let's see what happens. I have the gut feeling that balancing it out will determine the rest of the nudges required to move into Developmental.

Edit: Not sure if I noted it but the trial AML Disrupt was dropped this round from testing. It IS the right thing for the weapon but it's not going to happen as the goal is to move AMTL into Approved good or bad so we'll retire that idea for now.

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Aha, then I get it. I do not think that several inspiring characters is broken but it is good.

Not sure I follow you all the way Are you suggesting that half of the units may shoot or is it so already and I've missed that also... I do not like that you can target the infantry, it will only make things complicated, other than that I like it. Will try out the cannon you suggested but Slow Firing is a big drawback. I'll be back with some comments after the weekend.


What MW Devs? Is the plasma gun supposed to be MW or are you proposing it? If so I'm with you on that one. SM in general lack MW so a shorter range is a fair price to pay

Yea they are slow but I take a lot anyway. Often they garrison or arrive in Thunderhawks to get that extra mobility but once they are on the ground they stay in the area (Thinking about getting a Landingcraft proxie so I can land some big mob dreads)
OK, lets try out the mobile fortress and then we'll see if something else sticks out

It already is. Basically think it works like the Stormlord already does in the Cadian Shock troops list. They have a fighting platform and they can shoot and FF from it. Perhaps targeting them is silly bookkeeping in hindsight. The Slow-Firing is a drawback but one that I think needs to be made when you've got MW pieplates getting dropped into the opponent deployment zone. With the typical Marine high SR they can force opponents to Corner Deploy and get them all bunched up. Let's see if they need tweaks.


Yup that's it. The Plasma gun is already stated and put to good use in the Ordos lists that way in Inquisitorial Shock troops. 15cm range but you get a MW5+ shot. Again, it leads you more into the advance under fire and let loose style of play.

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