Kitchen sink lists are against the design philosophy of EA. You may differ on opinion on its efficacy but that's been the approach from the earliest days when 4th was first being designed. Also I'll point out that other toys are found all over other alternate lists. For instance, the Scions of Iron is a tank heavy armor marine list that has many of those fun things. Lastly, there's the balance issue: The more combinations and permutations possible, the exponentially more difficult testing is.

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Cool, that explains things maybe the medic will. Make it in some day

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sorry one final question - robots, im a fan of the 30k fluff, they have appeared in a few books fighting with marine units, is there any lists that include them - like iron hands etc? i went looking for them in a titan legion and could not find any,
theres some excellent metal robots plus the little plastic ones, the only robot units i could find where in the squat list, im just going to use them in my titan legion - a couple of units of them and some sentinels for scouting etc.

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Robots are in the EpicUK AMTL list, I thought there were lots of robots in the various Adeptus Mechanicus lists produced by NetEA?

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cant find em in the army list doc/rule pack no problem though

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As Kyuss said, there is a unit of them in UK AMTL, and different variations in the NetEA Admech lists.
Within Marine and IG lists you can proxy them for dreadnoughts and sentinels respectively.

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list is available in the first post here

Skitaari list is on page 3 of the document, it has two flavours of robots

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perfect! was looking at the wrong lists on the netea site,

thats exactly what i want thanks for the help guys

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Are you thinking about making any small changes to the codex list for 2014 Dobbsy? Dave is putting together the next Tournament Pack so now would be a good time. I've used the 2012 list loads and am very happy with it, but there are a few small things I reckon should be tweaked:

The Sniper upgrade is pretty rubbish, costing 25 points to upgrade a single stand to have sniper. Could we take a leaf out of Epic-UK's book and make the sniper upgrade +50 points to give all the scouts sniper?
Razorbacks – the internal balance is wonky and the Las Razorback is much better than the Heavy Bolter version (AT is more valuable than AP plus the extra range to boot). Could we keep the HB Razorback as is but drop the FF on the Las Razorback to 6+? 6+ is the normal value for other units with only a single powerful AT weapon e.g. the Hunter. The Las Razorback would still be better, but it'd be less of a no brainer.
Make the Land Speeder Typhoon cost a bit cheaper as previously discussed.

I'd rather see Sniper Free for the 1 stand upgrade. Also we should ad a restriction on scout formations. Say what you want about LoM personally, his point about the scout spam + warlord list is a yucky thing to allow.

GlynG, interesting idea on the FF for the Las Razorback!

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Scouts are already an excellent choice, they don't need the free boost that would give them.

GW never made models for sniper scouts either so people might mark one of their scouts with a marker or something, but it's not very WYSIWYG and it would be easier done on the whole formation level.

Scouts in the approved Salamanders and Scions of Iron list have +50 for all already so there's precedent.

Scout spam armies have the potential to be annoying, I would be happy to see Scout and Terminator formations made 0-5 as chapters normally have a hundred at most. That would leave 99.9% of people's lists unchanged anyway while removing the worst lists abusing them.

Annnnnd yet after 10 years we still don't have people having an issue finding ways to deal with this. Sorry, the argument doesn't have legs. It's not a huge deal otherwise it'd be heard far and wide long before now.


And I like not stealing their thunder


I'd even be more restrictive on the scouts. 1 per thousand points or so. Which IMHO would solve the first point about it being too good a boost. Regardless of differences, you make some good points, mate

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Agreed on this.

TBH these Scout armies are still yet to be proven broken. No one bar I think one person ever attempted to try one and actually write about it and even they had mixed results IIRC.

When they start to turn up in tournies and more people start to complain about them we will revisit this issue. Right now there's no real proof, just theory-hammer.

On the sniper upgrade and Razorback change I'd be keen to know how the larger community feel about it before these change got made - not likely for 2014 IMHO. In fact all these changes you propose need proper play-testing before they get put in the list. Unless folks start doing batreps using these off their own backs I won't de-approve the Codex list without community agreement. I wonder if the timing is a little short for this.

Absolutely, it would be good to get more discussion and feedback. If you any of you out there are reading this please add your thoughts!


I wouldn't suggest anything that would see the core SM unapproved! Wouldn't exactly make me popular...
Things really aren't that strict though and there's leeway - you're free to make some smaller changes to your approved list at your discretion (I believe the ERC have a quick look and confirm they're ok then) without it affecting it's approved status.

Rug has decided to drop the cost of 4 of the formations/upgrades in the IG list for the upcoming tournament pack and this isn't effecting it's approved status at all. The SM changes I suggested would overall likely have less effect on the list than the IG changes and would probably be approved fine.