Tactical Command
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Experimental Formations
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=23655		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Simulated Knave [ Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:07 am ]
Post subject:  Experimental Formations
As mentioned in the falling behind thread, I thought experimental formations might be a good method of adding in new units without either shoehorning them into stable lists or spawning a swarm of new lists. The idea is not to create a list, but to create a bunch of formations for various new units. These formations could be included in their own section in the compendium (with costs etc), with the note that they were experimental and their interactions with lists not well understood. That way there's some avenue for playing with them in Epic without the requirement to create a list or several lists to accomodate them.

Anyway. New Space Marine units that may (or may not) work in an experimental formation:

OK. New and old units that currently lack a presence in the main list.
Sternguard
Vanguard
Razorback variants
Whirlwind alternate ammo
Sabre
Land Raider Redeemer
Land Raider Ares
Land Raider Achilles
Land Raider Helios
Land Raider Prometheus
Land Raider Terminus
Hellfire Land Raider
Land Raider Spartan
Land Raider Proteus
Spartan Assault Tank
Mortis Dread
Ironclad Dread
Siege Dread
Contemptor Dread
Land Speeder Tempest
Land Speeder Storm
Storm Talon
Storm Eagle
Storm Raven
Caestus Assault Ram
Tarantula
Predator Executioner (Plasma)
Predator Executioner (Conversion beamer)
Mastodon
Fellblade
Fireraptor
Thunderfire Cannons

Anything I'm missing?
Author:  Simulated Knave [ Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Experimental Formations
My thoughts on these:

Sternguard/Vanguard - might be worth creating a unified Veteran formation (Chaos has one, after all). Don't think Sternguard really need their own, though.
Whirlwind alternate ammo - Castellan Incendiary ammo might be a good formation for Siege lists and the like. Castellan mine ammo doesn't seem like it'd work well in Epic, though.
Sabre - could work well as a Vindicator-type formation.
Land Raider Redeemer - Could work well as a formation of three or four.
Land Raider Ares - Not the most logical Land Raider, but might work well either as a formation or in a formation with Vindicators.
Land Raider Achilles - Formation of three?
Land Raider Helios - already a formation in the Scions of Iron.
Spartan Assault Tank - One doesn't hold that much, two holds half a Battle Company, four is just ridiculous. Two?
Mortis Dread - Might work as a formation
Land Speeder Tempest - could reproduce that Apocalypse formation with a Thunderhawk
Storm Talon - set of two
Storm Eagle - set of two
Caestus Assault Ram - dunno
Tarantula - four to six
Thunderfire Cannons - four to six (whatever makes them equivalent to a Whirlwind formation, basically)

Don't work as formations, IMO:
Razorback variants - transport
Land Raider Prometheus - rare.
Land Raider Terminus - I always saw this as a somewhat rare vehicle, so I don't think it quite works as a formation.
Land Raider Spartan - semi-superseded by the Spartan Assault tank
Land Raider Proteus - rare.
Land Speeder Storm - transport
Storm Raven - its limited distribution would suggest no formation
Predator Executioner (Plasma) - rare
Predator Executioner (Conversion beamer) - rare
Mastodon - pre-Heresy
Fellblade - pre-Heresy
Fireraptor - not enough details to stat it up
Author:  BlackLegion [ Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Experimental Formations
Sabre is n't part of current fluff
What is a Hellfire Land Raider?
Spartan Assault Tank and Land Raider Spartan are the same
Mastodon uhm only once mentionedin one of the Horus Heresy novels
Fellblade same as above
Fireraptor same as above iirc
Author:  CaptainSenioris [ Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Experimental Formations
Simulated Knave wrote:
Anything I'm missing?

Thunderfire canons
Author:  Dobbsy [ Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Experimental Formations
Simulated Knave wrote:
Sternguard/Vanguard - might be worth creating a unified Veteran formation (Chaos has one, after all). Don't think Sternguard really need their own, though.
Whirlwind alternate ammo - Castellan Incendiary ammo might be a good formation for Siege lists and the like. Castellan mine ammo doesn't seem like it'd work well in Epic, though.
Sabre - could work well as a Vindicator-type formation.
Land Raider Redeemer - Could work well as a formation of three or four.
Land Raider Ares - Not the most logical Land Raider, but might work well either as a formation or in a formation with Vindicators.
Land Raider Achilles - Formation of three?
Land Raider Helios - already a formation in the Scions of Iron.
Spartan Assault Tank - One doesn't hold that much, two holds half a Battle Company, four is just ridiculous. Two?
Mortis Dread - Might work as a formation
Land Speeder Tempest - could reproduce that Apocalypse formation with a Thunderhawk
Storm Talon - set of two
Storm Eagle - set of two
Caestus Assault Ram - dunno
Tarantula - four to six

I understand this list is a think tank SK, so good start. I also think it's important to mention here that we still need abstraction in a list. Kitchen sink is not the approach that should be taken. For example, what do all the Land Raider variants really bring to the table that the LR, LRC and possibly the Siege and Spartan version don't already...? Sure it's nice to have toys but they're unnecessary in Epic to a large degree. Things like Vets have been argued to death IMO. Tacticals bring essentially the same thing to a game.
I'm pretty sure we don't want a list that's swollen and cluttered with unit types that duplicate other unit types.

Basically, think streamlined, not bloated and think really hard about why a unit needs inclusion and how to include those we do. "Because it's cool!" is obviously not a reason :D
Author:  Simulated Knave [ Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Experimental Formations
BlackLegion
Quote:
Sabre is n't part of current fluff


So? Neither are Squats.

Including old stuff is just as valuable for attracting people as including new stuff. Possibly more - nostalgia is often a more powerful motivator than excitement over new shiny things.

Quote:
What is a Hellfire Land Raider?


Apparently a term for the original Land Raider in Rogue Trader.

Quote:
Spartan Assault Tank and Land Raider Spartan are the same


Er...not really. I'd admit that the one supersedes the other to a large extent, but they did have different stats.

Dobbsy
Quote:
I'm pretty sure we don't want a list that's swollen and cluttered with unit types that duplicate other unit types.


I think you've misunderstood what I'm trying for here.

The idea was not to create a list, but to create a bunch of formations for various new units. These formations could be included in their own section in the compendium (with costs etc), with the note that they were experimental and their interactions with lists not well understood. That way there's some avenue for playing with them in Epic without the requirement to create a list or several lists to accommodate them.

In short, this is actually intended to be a bloated assortment of stuff. ;)

(Also I just edited the above and Thunderfire Cannons (thanks CaptainSenioris) into the first post for explanatory purposes)
Author:  jimmyzimms [ Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Experimental Formations
Simulated Knave wrote:
OK. New and old units that currently lack a presence in the main list

For clarification, do you mean the Codex Astartes list?

Simulated Knave wrote:
Quote:
What is a Hellfire Land Raider?


Apparently a term for the original Land Raider in Rogue Trader

True though isn't that been retcon'd/reimagined really to be the proteus? Now granted the OG Land Raider couldn't carry termies and the Proteus can but I think that's more about the how the 40k codex has changed over the years. I think you can call it good and collapse them into one. I'd rather concentrate on the rest of that nummy list of stuff you got there :)

Simulated Knave wrote:
Quote:
Spartan Assault Tank and Land Raider Spartan are the same


Er...not really. I'd admit that the one supersedes the other to a large extent, but they did have different stats.

Same as above :)

Simulated Knave wrote:
Don't work as formations, IMO:
Razorback variants - transport
Land Raider Prometheus - rare.
Land Raider Terminus - I always saw this as a somewhat rare vehicle, so I don't think it quite works as a formation.
Land Raider Spartan - semi-superseded by the Spartan Assault tank
Land Raider Proteus - rare.
Land Speeder Storm - transport
Storm Raven - its limited distribution would suggest no formation
Predator Executioner (Plasma) - rare
Predator Executioner (Conversion beamer) - rare
Mastodon - pre-Heresy
Fellblade - pre-Heresy
Fireraptor - not enough details to stat it up


For what we do have fluff and stats and enough to go with could we stat these up at least (though as Priority 2)? In addition, if being rare is a discriminator for not making a good formation then you'd better move the Sabre there as well by that logic. I'd rather see rare being an 0-1 upgrade in an army for those types of items. Example: if I take 2 vindicator formatations in an army (don't ask me why :D), one, and only one them could be upgraded to a Sabre formation IMO is more elegant. For seriously OTT powerful stuff like Predator Executioners we can make it a single vehicle upgrade (like how we do salamanders in some of the IG lists) Thoughts?

In addition, some of these units (Sabres and Proteus I know for certain as I pushed for stats :D) already have been argued over and stat'ed so I'd love to see us start from where we left off and not start from square one again (and the obligatory 30 pages of debates :spin !)
Author:  madd0ct0r [ Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Experimental Formations
I thought thunderfire cannon already were in the siege marines lists?

Do scout bikers have a unit?

The sterngard (with their funky ammo) might be difficult to stat sensibly.

Assault terminators, Heavy flamer terminator,

Venerable Dread
Author:  BlackLegion [ Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Experimental Formations
Heavy Flamer Terminators are in the Salamanders list.
Author:  Frosthammer [ Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Experimental Formations
IIRC the Fellblade is simply one of the IG super heavy tanks with a SM crew...eg Baneblade with SM crew instead of human crew...they were rare within the Legions and wouldnt be around post heresy - the little book by the king of the Ultrasmurfs would not approve :D
Author:  BlackLegion [ Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Experimental Formations
New stuff rumoured for 2013:

Quote:
New flyer. Interceptor/bomber. Flat but boxy. Storm raven sized. No transport. No hover. Heavy assault cannon and ff missiles. Or bombs and servo drones in gun pods.
Edit: shares wing/engine aesthetics of storm raven, but fuselage is flatter. Wings not as bent. No thrusters in wingtips. Two tail options, one for each build.

New scout transport. Like Tauros (FW ig) but open wagon style. Halo warthog mashed w rhino. Pintle TL HB.
Edit: rumored rule only will allow pintle weapon when unit is embarked. Fast vehicle. 4 buggy style wheels. Rider models/bits compatible with new scout box. Roughly rhino sized. For Baja race fans think armored sandrail.
Author:  Apologist [ Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Experimental Formations
Quote:
The sterngard (with their funky ammo) might be difficult to stat sensibly.

I'd suggest using Tactical Marines as the base, and boosting their FF and CC to 3+, and making their formation size four units would work, at least as a starting point. It'd fit in with the style of the existing army list.
Author:  madd0ct0r [ Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Experimental Formations
I'd make them a formation addon with sniper. I'm not sure a chapter had enough to field them as a seperate formation...
Author:  Apologist [ Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Experimental Formations
If they have enough Terminators to field as separate formations, they have enough powere armoured veterans.
Author:  jimmyzimms [ Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Experimental Formations
Not saying these are perfect or where priced, correctly done :)
However I've gone through the whole site and AFAIK gathered up all listings for units that are not part of a list or are variations discussed that are not the same. In addition, this thread is marine specific and the document isn't but why not?. :)

I've been trying to keep an eye out for any proposed stats and keep this up to date but feel free to smack me upside the head
anyways hopefully this is of use

https://skydrive.live.com/embed?cid=D6F ... FUuWwRU04k

EDIT: In addition, before "Flame Power-ACTIVATE" occurs, this is only a collation of stats. I am neither advocating for or against any of their use, nor their incorporation into any lists, present, past, or future :D
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