Thanks for the feedback Dave. I really appreciate the time and effort.
Now onto my response...
Dave wrote:
[*]Land Raiders 325 point per formation/75 point upgrades(no 85 point add-ons)
As a formation they compete with Annihilators for a place. They are slightly more versatile though given the better armor and improved FF, making them good assault/support tanks. Given that and how they compare to Annihilators I think 350 is fair. If people still aren't taking them then 325 is still a possibility, especially given an upgrade cost of 75 each.
On the upgrade cost, I didn't test it but I'd be inclined to keep it for the easier math and the EUK going with it.
So far in the 4 games I've played with a formation, they've only made back their points or better in one game (and only then due to extreme luck - I rolled double 6s on two individual crits on a 2x Cobra formation). In all games they ended up destroyed or broken for at least the final turn of the game(meaning they don't stay in the fight for the whole game). In one game they managed to strip the shields on a Warhound and do 1 point of DC but it took a Land Speeder formation to kill it with a crit. Going by the stats(I only have one game versus WHs to go by so far...) a Warhound will do far more damage and return its points easily.
In comparison to the Annihilator I have no recent experience with them as of yet. However I don't see the LRs competing with them as you do. The 75 point difference makes the Preds a cheaper option so actually a better option for activation count etc. Also even if they do "compete" I imagine SM players would like to use them and at 350 they didn't seem to be seeing much action, which just seems wrong for such an iconic unit. Also, it seems off to charge 350 points for the 4 when people seem happy with 75 points each individually. +50 points for a formation seems way off; at +25 it's not such a bitter pill.
Dave wrote:
[*]Vindicators 225 per formation
I believe I'm in the minority here but I've had no problem with 25cm/Walker Vindicators at 250 points. They're great on the double/support and fast enough now to keep up for the rest of the army.
Given that they're usually the first formation I choose to sacrifice though I wouldn't bring the reduction to 225 off the table yet. If people still aren't using them at 250 then let's try 225. I'd feel more comfortable dropping these than Land Raiders at the moment, I'd just like to see more reports.
Agreed regarding seeing more reports.
People dropping them in favour of other things is kind of the point to me though....
Dave wrote:
[*]Tacticals 275 per formation. Allow LR upgrade
I can't think of any games where I didn't take at least one Tactical formation and I've had to have played at least 100 games by now using two of them. They are the corner stones of my lists and I've always felt that they're worth their points at 300. Of all these changes I think this one is the most unnecessary.
The Land Raider upgrade I'm not bothered about.
Fair enough, no worries. Can I ask if you have/had ever
considered using the LR as a Tac upgrade though? I just feel that those who don't want to use them don't have to and those who do should be given the opportunity. The upgrade also helps with the return of the iconic tank to the list if people don't want to field a formation due to points concerns as they build.
The 4 games I've played with Tacs has had them heavily bombed (not destroyed mind you) and putting little more than the odd BM on formations and adding some decent firefight support, creating a "threat without
major teeth" especially with such small numbers. Opponents can't ignore them but they haven't been a huge hitter either. That said, I think in the end, seeing more of them on the table though is worth the 25 point drop.
Dave wrote:
[*]Predators 250 per formation/FF3+ for Destructor
I don't think Destructors need both a reduction and a FF bump, one or the other would suit. Given their current stats (FF4+) I think 225-250 points for four is fair. I don't think Annihilators need to be touched at all though, 275 for four is cheap enough. I've used them at that price and felt they earned their points back in too many games to think they're worth less than 275.
I'd be inclined to follow the EUK in this and change the Predator formation to 4 Destructors for 225 points, with an upgrade that allows you to upgrade pairs to Annihilators for 25 points a pair.
I don't like the split points or additional upgrade ideas personally, as they just add an extra level of complication to the list rather than the simple "all tanks the same points" system . Also 275 point Pred As do not share parity with a Warhound. They just don't and my aim with most of these changes is to bring more Marine than Allies to the table.
Dave wrote:
[*]Thunderbolts 175 per squadron
On its own this is going to make the following builds illegal:
2 Warhounds (paired or single) and 3 formations of tbolts
1 Warlord and 1 formation of tbolts
Without any corroborating reports I'd say leave them at 150. Yes they benefit from the Marines SR but they're still unlikely to get to their target without suffering fire and are just as fragile as the IG's tbolts.
As mentioned my changes are aimed at reducing the reliance on Allies to either a/pad a list or b/make up a large portion of one....
So far in my 4 games with them they perform the same and the only issue I've had is losing 25 points in list build. Depending on the situation, I usually go straight onto CAP with at least one squadron (given my strategy dominance). It's a no brainer. Recently I used a single Squadron to draw a Nightwing CAP so my TH could Air assault. One aircraft lived to fight on after jinking.
Importantly, "on its own" isn't the flavour of this change in general, but I feel the issue of SR5 does make them worth slightly more than a Guard squadron. We can't get around that point.
Dave wrote:
[*]Warlord at 825
Only had one game with this guy at 825 so I can't really comment on it from the playtest angle. On the meta side of things I don't think 25 points is going to make that big of a difference, we're talking a 3% reduction here over 850. If the Orks and IG can live with their biggest WEs at 850 I think the Marines can too.
Even at 825 it's still 1/4 of your army at 3k. It's a point sink in a game where outnumbering the opponent in activations is a huge bonus, a 25 point drop isn't going to change that.[/list]
I feel this change is a minor one that helps you field the Warlord with 1 Thunderbolt Squadron and something tells me I would get more complaints if I left the Warlord at 850 and kept the Thunderbolt increase (which as I mentioned actually needs a bump).
angel_of_caliban wrote:
If people really want to up the cost then it should be across all lists.
Completely disagree. For starters, units in highly different lists can be of different pricing. Secondly, I feel it's more important to promote the
actual army's units than the allies listed in that list. Pricing can reflect a premium to do that.
