Tactical Command :: View topic - Scouts - price increase and adjustment

Mixed opinion on the price rise: they're currently pretty cheap, but have you ever seen anyone take more than two formations since the loss of drop pods?

In W40k rules and background Scouts have never (not in any edition) had access to Rhinos or Razorbacks – they’re not vehicles they use. While they could still operate fine on a W40k battlefield on foot, they would have been very poor in Epic without any transport vehicles, so for the lack of any other good option they were allowed access to Rhinos and Razorbacks. A few years ago GW finally released a dedicated transport specifically for transporting SM Scouts the– the Land Speeder Storm (which carries 1 stand and is armed only with 1 heavy bolter) and I believe we should adopt the proper Scout transport in the Epic list. The Land Speeder Storm has been in the Raven Guard list here for a while now, but it is not specially associated with the Raven Guard – Storms are used by all chapters.

Steve54 wrote:

LS Storm - IMO as far as possible 'core' lists should be freely available model wise

There are a range of proxy options available depending how much time/effort a player wants to spend. A regular Land Speeder as is could be a simple Storm proxy just painted in camo-colours (the Forge World books show SMs occasionally use camo and despite GW’s default colour scheme the Storm is the vehicle camo makes most sense for). An additional idea is perhaps to clip the circle bases off and attach a Scout model or two to the sides as though they are holding on/shooting in transit/disembarking – the current metal Scouts can be bent and re-positioned very easily.

Optionally, if a more complex/detailed conversion was desired, a regular Land Speeder could be sawed in half horizontally, with the two halves then pinned together with a gap and the gap filled with a layer of plasticard. Possibly appropriately sized plastic rod could be used to add a third exhaust to the back if particularly bothered. Lastly there’s always the possibility a suitable proxy could appear through CAD at some point in the future, though this isn't necessarily needed.

IMO, upgrades that affect only one thing are to be avoided wherever possible...adding an upgrade which benefits only one unit. That's so...inelegant.

I'm not a big fan of those upgrades, either, to be honest. On the other hand, they're there already. C'est la vie.

I would point out that that would mean that Scouts would have two upgrades that exist only to cater to them, which seems a bit much for a 150 point unit that only comprises 10% of any Space Marine force.

even if a talented animal was to make suitable storm-thingies for easy access...

Author:	Dobbsy [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Scouts - price increase and adjustment
Proposal: Scouts formation to 175 points and a possible removal of vehicles and implementation of the LS Storm. Discuss....

Author:	zombocom [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Scouts - price increase and adjustment
Definite no to losing vehicles or adding the storm. Mixed opinion on the price rise: they're currently pretty cheap, but have you ever seen anyone take more than two formations since the loss of drop pods?

Author:	GlynG [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Scouts - price increase and adjustment
Definite yes to testing both from me! Many players feel Scouts are too cheap and currently over-used in SM armies and believe 175 points would be a better cost for them. The suggestion has come up a few times in the past and I believe originated a while ago from Dave Thomas (the top Epic player in the world going by tournament wins), or at least that’s where I first saw it. They are a regularly used cheap activation with a lot of good abilities: Scout, Mobile with free transports, Infiltrate 5+ armour, Infiltrate, CC4+. Particularly if upgraded with one or more Razorbacks they have decent firepower and can take on and win again other enemy scout formation. Also if they take a single Razorback and it is destroyed then they still have their two Rhinos are not stranded walking. They will often garrison and disrupt the enemy plans; causing trouble if they are ignored but tending to require a good amount of firepower to break or wipe them out if the enemy chooses to. zombocom wrote: Mixed opinion on the price rise: they're currently pretty cheap, but have you ever seen anyone take more than two formations since the loss of drop pods? Actually Scouts are popular despite that – 2 out of the half a dozen most recent lists on Epic-UK’s site alone took 3 Scout formations. I went through the 30 most recent codex SM army lists taken on Epic-UK's site (great to have this kind of data to pull up!). Of those 5 (16.6%) took 0 Scout formations; 8 (26.6%) took 1 Scout formation; 13 (43.3%) took 2 Scout formation and 4 (13.3%) took 3 formation. 56.6% took 2-3 Scout formations and the average amount of Scout formations per player was 1.53. I'll add discussion of Storms in a bit.

Author:	Onyx [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Scouts - price increase and adjustment
Definite no to adding the Storm. This sort of thing belongs in a variant list. The Scouts should retain the transport options they presently have. I have no particular leanings on the price rise. I can see a possible justification for it BUT it depends on what happens with the rest of the list. We can't really keep thinking about these formations in isolation.

Author:	Jaggedtoothgrin [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Scouts - price increase and adjustment
i dunno about the price rise. it seems like a fair price, but i never really use scouts anyway (i tend to take land speeders instead) in part because i dont have many of the model, and in part because i have never liked scouts in rhinos as such, i would support a "scouts remain the same cost, but lose their transport options" choice even further and as i think that the land speeder storm is pretty much the best "new" idea 40k has introduced in a long while, and would very much rather see scouts in epic use their dedicated transport instead of everyone elses, i totally support the inclusion of land speeder storms into the core list. although i imagine that too many people will shake their jowls and moan "but we already own rhinos" for that particular idea to get any traction, even if a talented animal was to make suitable storm-thingies for easy access...

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Scouts - price increase and adjustment http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=21109	Page 1 of 3

Author:	GlynG [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Scouts - price increase and adjustment
To start I'm going to re-post the justification for Storms from the other thread: GlynG wrote: In W40k rules and background Scouts have never (not in any edition) had access to Rhinos or Razorbacks – they’re not vehicles they use. While they could still operate fine on a W40k battlefield on foot, they would have been very poor in Epic without any transport vehicles, so for the lack of any other good option they were allowed access to Rhinos and Razorbacks. A few years ago GW finally released a dedicated transport specifically for transporting SM Scouts the– the Land Speeder Storm (which carries 1 stand and is armed only with 1 heavy bolter) and I believe we should adopt the proper Scout transport in the Epic list. The Land Speeder Storm has been in the Raven Guard list here for a while now, but it is not specially associated with the Raven Guard – Storms are used by all chapters. These are Land Speeder Storms (just in-case any of you aren’t familiar with them): The stats for a Storm (from the Raven Guard list) are: LV 35cm move, 4+ armour CC6+ FF5+ 1 x Heavy Bolter 30cm AP5+ Notes: Skimmer, Transport (May carry 1 Scout unit) Basically identical to a Tornado, without the second weapon. Note the Storms do not themselves have Scout. To compare them to Razorbacks: Advantages: Storm is a Skimmer, Storm has 4+ armour, Storm has +5cm move, Storm is realistically a more practical vehicle for scouts and looks cooler Disadvantages: Storm only has a single heavy bolter, Storm is a LV, high cost as Storm upgrade is for 4 whereas most people have only 1 Razorback and only occasionally 2-3. If Scouts are made 175 then I suggest the Land Speeder Storms upgrade should be +75 points for 4. The formation has been tested at 250 in the Raven Guard list and though the upgrade cost could still be +100 for the Storms 275 sounds a bit high for the formation. Part of the issues with 150 or 175 un-upgraded Scouts come from their cheap cost adding to activation count and allowing a few formations to be used together and this is less of an issue with 250-275 points units. Also, crucially, all Land Speeders in the Raven Guard list also have a special ability allowing them to Planetfall (it’s one of the defining featured of the list), so it is not unreasonable for the Storms cost to be cheaper here without that. The Raven Guard list has planetfalling Land Speeders and half a dozen new units, so we wouldn’t be stealing its thunder by making the Storms generally available – Neal Hunt also said in the other thread that they are the one new SM unit he would be ok with retroactively including in the main SM list. In-case anyone notices and wonders about them, yes, they do also have a small underslung grenade launcher, but even in W40k this ‘Cerberus Launcher’ doesn’t shoot or kill as such, but just gives the Scouts a small bonus if they charge into close combat on the turn they disembark. It fires very short projectiles which stun and blind the enemy, temporarily reducing the enemy leadership should they loose the combat. Basically, it’s an effect too inconsequential to be relevant to epic or the unit stats. Another re-post from the other thread on proxying Storms: GlynG wrote: Steve54 wrote: LS Storm - IMO as far as possible 'core' lists should be freely available model wise There are a range of proxy options available depending how much time/effort a player wants to spend. A regular Land Speeder as is could be a simple Storm proxy just painted in camo-colours (the Forge World books show SMs occasionally use camo and despite GW’s default colour scheme the Storm is the vehicle camo makes most sense for). An additional idea is perhaps to clip the circle bases off and attach a Scout model or two to the sides as though they are holding on/shooting in transit/disembarking – the current metal Scouts can be bent and re-positioned very easily. Optionally, if a more complex/detailed conversion was desired, a regular Land Speeder could be sawed in half horizontally, with the two halves then pinned together with a gap and the gap filled with a layer of plasticard. Possibly appropriately sized plastic rod could be used to add a third exhaust to the back if particularly bothered. Lastly there’s always the possibility a suitable proxy could appear through CAD at some point in the future, though this isn't necessarily needed. In an ideal world I’d much prefer getting rid of both Rhinos and Razorbacks for Scouts, but that might be a step too far for people at large to be happy with. A good potential compromise we could agree on and test could be to add Storms and remove Razorbacks, but leave Rhinos. Then people with existing transports painted up for their Scouts can still use the basic Rhinios (and the Razorback(s) elsewhere), while the rest of us get to use Storms. If they are added in I would often use 1-2 formations with Storms in my lists.

Author:	BlackLegion [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Scouts - price increase and adjustment
I'm all for removing Rhinos and Razorbacks and give the Scouts the only transport vehicle which makes any kind of sence: The Land Speeder Storm.

Author:	Simulated Knave [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Scouts - price increase and adjustment
Yes to the point increase (their ubiquity in EUK lists suggests they're a little cheap), no to adding LSSes, yes to removing Razorbacks, no to removing Rhinos. Reasoning on the last two points: As people have said, by rights they should have no transports. However, they have had transports (and so depriving them would have game balance consequences), and not having transports in Epic can be pretty rough. It also isn't unreasonable to assume that the Rhinos are used to move Scouts around strategically, just not tactically. So they should have Rhinos. However, they don't need Razorbacks. First, Razorbacks are (generally) heavy fire support for frontline combat (not exactly what Scouts do). Second, my impression has always been that they're rarer (and more valuable) than Rhinos - so a chapter's new recruits getting them seems strange. Third, since they have transports only through necessity, giving them more transport than is absolutely required seems odd. Scouts need transports to get them from point A to point B, where they start sneaking. Their transports don't sneak along behind them and fill everyone full of dakka. Reasoning on no Land Speeder Storm: First, it would affect only one unit. IMO, upgrades that affect only one thing are to be avoided wherever possible. Second, it would add something to one of the three most established lists in the game, which is (IMO) to be avoided if possible. Third, it would mean the Scout's basic transport required converting. Adding Storms and removing Razorbacks would make sense. On the other hand, this is still adding an upgrade which benefits only one unit. That's so...inelegant.

Author:	Evil and Chaos [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Scouts - price increase and adjustment
Yes to LS storms - They are the only unit I would support being added to the core list in fact. Unsure on a price rise; any thought on a change to the sniper scout upgrade pricing? EUK have 50pts for the whole formation.

Author:	GlynG [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Scouts - price increase and adjustment
Simulated Knave wrote: IMO, upgrades that affect only one thing are to be avoided wherever possible...adding an upgrade which benefits only one unit. That's so...inelegant. It is? Perhaps I’m missing something but that seems like an odd reason for avoiding them to me. Just looking at the SM list the Attack Bikes, Snipers, Battle Barge and Tornado/Typoon upgrades similarly all just apply to one formation.

Author:	Simulated Knave [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Scouts - price increase and adjustment
Attack Bikes don't even need to be an upgrade now that they're free. It really, really should be "five Bikes or Attack Bikes in any combination". I'm not a big fan of those upgrades, either, to be honest. On the other hand, they're there already. C'est la vie. I would point out that that would mean that Scouts would have two upgrades that exist only to cater to them, which seems a bit much for a 150 point unit that only comprises 10% of any Space Marine force.

Author:	GlynG [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Scouts - price increase and adjustment
Simulated Knave wrote: I'm not a big fan of those upgrades, either, to be honest. On the other hand, they're there already. C'est la vie. I can't say it's ever occurred to me as being a problem, but fair enough. Hmmm... perhaps the solution should be to to share those single unit applying upgrades around the list more; my Devestator Marines would love the firepower increase from upgrading one of their stands to a Battle Barge Simulated Knave wrote: I would point out that that would mean that Scouts would have two upgrades that exist only to cater to them, which seems a bit much for a 150 point unit that only comprises 10% of any Space Marine force. I realise both of the following are a larger part of their armies but they'd be less greedy than Eldar Guardians (with 4 upgrades all to themselves) or LaTD Covens (with 14).

Author:	Simulated Knave [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Scouts - price increase and adjustment
Hey, the fact that other lists are worse doesn't make them right!

Author:	frogbear [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Scouts - price increase and adjustment
Jaggedtoothgrin wrote: even if a talented animal was to make suitable storm-thingies for easy access... Please let this not be the justification as to it should be the case. If anything it is one step closer to a C&D

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Author:	Evil and Chaos [ Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Scouts - price increase and adjustment
Proxies are already available; you take a land speeder, don't stick the multi melta on it, and attach it to the scout formation... What else is it going to be??