**WARNING!! WALL OF TEXT AHEAD! WARNING!!**

E&C: I've been mulling this over, trying to think about how to make the Stormraven work.

The main idea I came up with is for a dedicated formation (or formations) that use it, patterned off the armor formations of the Scions list. So, something like 4 infantry + 2 dreads + Stormravens as a heavy formation.

But while I was thinking about this, it occurred to me that most of the formations I was contemplating, and indeed the entire style of the army, was pretty close to what I would do with the Codex list. Right now the BA list has almost all the options of the Codex list, just spun slightly - Stormravens instead of LR formation, and a few differences in size and upgrades, which still add up to more or less the same roles.

So I backed up and thought about what would make it iconically BA. What style should this represent? What units should be prevalent? What should be limited?

You may disagree with some or all of this, but this is where I ended up:

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Units are easy - Baal vehicles, Furioso, Assault Marines in quantity, Stormravens and the Death Company (of course).

Style - The presence of the Death Company would mean some sort of significant offensive by the BA. After all, the DC has to have time to brood and flip out. The offensive orientation also explains the chapter tweaking on the Red Thirst and getting the Frenzied trait. Obviously, when JJ wrote the list back in 2004, he intended it to be an infantry-centric SM list. You can keep that or not, but I think it still fits.

To me, that all adds up to a sort of infantry blitzkrieg force. It might parallel the White Scars, but with assault marines and fast mech (Baal vehicles and Stormravens) instead of bikes. The presence of Stormraven dread transport allows them (in theory) to keep up with the infantry.

Limited elements - Static, base of fire elements should probably be in short supply. Fire support should be fast and/or directly attached to the infantry. Most of the close assault roles should be filled by Assault Marines, so other fast attack options should be pared down.


To more specific considerations...

Dreadnoughts - Including dreadnoughts is just problematic. This is for all the same reasons as dreads in the Codex list, aggravated somewhat because both dread patterns are assault.

Dreads don't fit with fire support formations, with the possible exception of a Dev air assault. The melta pattern is the obvious choice for clipping and better follow-on FF. The Furioso's only benefit is CC defense.

They only fit with Assault Marines if they can keep up, which means Stormravens. That's expensive. It triggers the unavoidable "I'm wasting transport space" mental state, since the assault marines don't need the transport. The need to keep the Dreads loaded so they can keep up in assault is also an inherent weakness, basically a negative synergy, where the combination of units is less valuable than they would be separately in other situations. I don't think the advantages of being able to planetfall the Assault Marines is really all that great in this case and doesn't make up for the negative synergy even if it is used.

One possible solution to the Dread/Stormraven conundrum would be a specific upgrade combo with a discount that takes this into account. Obviously, it would only be available to formations where this problem applies.

Dreads would be okay with Tacticals, effectively making them an assault formation with a ranged fire backup. This works as ground-pounders/garrison, as air assault or in Stormravens as a mech infantry formation.

Devs - Devs + Dreads as a FF/ranged fire formation might be workable if the Dread/Stormraven combo is available at a decent price.

Speeder - Could easily be cut. Fast scouts and skimmers are available in other formations that focus more on iconic BA elements.

Preds - Probably okay, but could be cut, with the idea of attaching them more often to infantry.

Scout - Might be cut. The bike scouts are more BA-flavored. Alternately, they could be restricted solely to being mounted in Stormravens.

Tacticals - I think the problem with the Tactical formation is that it just can't be easily customized to use any of the iconic BA stuff without becoming very expensive (with the exception of Tac + Dread thawk load). One possible solution to this would be to break it into a smaller formation with "upgrades" built in, similar to the Scions list, like I noted above. Examples:

Mechanized Tacs - 4 Tacs + Transport + 2 Baal vehicles, 300 points and a good match for adding other fast units - more Baals or Assault marines. Exactly parallel to the Scions' Tacs.

Stormraven Tacs (obviously, you'd need a cool BA-oriented name) - 4 Tacs + 2 Stormravens, 350 points. It's decently shooty, but could be a decent match for adding Dreads to push it back to an all-rounder. Parallel to the Scions' LR-mounted Tacs.

"Furioso" Tacs - 4 Tacs + 2 Dreads, 325 points. This could be an alternate to the Stormraven mech squad. It would be expensive to mount in Stormravens (~475 total), but it is a prepackaged garrison or thawk load. Without this, there's really not a Tactical-based Thawk loads. Devs and scout bikes would be the only garrison option.

Aerospace options - ok, but the Thawk Transport might be considered as an addition to help getting the Baal vehicles into play.

Upgrades

Fast Attack - I think this can be limited to just the Bike formation or cut. If the player wants to add assault ability, they should use Assault Marines. If they want close support, they should use Baal vehicles. Having this widely available just detracts from the iconic units.

Stormraven + Dread (again, need some cool BA name) - 125 points?, available to Assault, DC, Devs, Terminators. This is partially built into the Tac options above, so they wouldn't need it.

Stormraven - Limited to remaining transport capacity, after other upgrades, obviously.

The angle I've been approaching the list from is from a balanced mix of special rules and a few new unit choices, as the Blood Angels are meant to be close Codex adherents (They have the same numbers of Tacticals, Assaults and Devastators as the Ultramarines, for example).


Agreed. When put up against something like a Librarian or a Chaplain, or a Hunter, the other upgrades are going to win out.

That implies to me that it's simply only worth 50pts, even in its upgraded Blood Angels stats.



Mmmmm...


Land Speeders are apparently greatly used by the Blood Angels, due to their "flying theme" (Blood Angels like stuff that flies due to their Primarch having wings, a genetic "love" of flying, etc.).


I've been thinking of cutting the Predator Annihilator, just leaving the Baal Predator.


I'd rather not cut them, BA are a codex chapter and use Scouts in all the standard roles, with the notable exception of using Stormravens instead of transport Land Speeders.
I could see them coming with Stormravens as standard.


What about taking a Tactical formation + 1 Stormraven?
Ie: Using them as a sort of "super razorback", in taking just one?

Also, Tacticals should be 275pts now, not 300pts.


That is quite a possibility as a new formation type.


Blood Angels are supposed to be heavy users of Thunderhawk Transporters in air-dropping Land Raiders in particular (They're the only Chapter that has a special rule to that extent in 40k).


Agreed, it'll be cut.


That'd be a workable upgrade...

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Being a 'fluffyphobe' I just wonder whether an answer to the Dreadnought connundrum is a separate formation of SR mounted Dreads? Perhaps 3x of each for 400 pts?

Slightly riffing on this, the Stormraven formation (4 SR's for 300pts) currently has no upgrades available... giving it access to the Dreadnought and Assault upgrades might be interesting?

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Cool. Glad you don't think I'm crocked.

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Dreads for 50 points: You know, the big issue with them is air assault but only Devs can take more than one in an air assault. Even if they are a bit cheap that's probably a pretty minor effective point discrepancy. Might as well give it a try.

Dreads/SR upgrade: If you go 50 point dreads, this might not be needed. With 50 point dreads and a 25 point discount, it's only 100 points. Would 450 points for Devs + 2 Melta Dreads + Stormravens sound okay?

Speeders: Ah, yes. That slipped my mind.

Thawk Transport: Sounds good. Tac + Razorback/Baal/Hunter or Tacs + 2 LRC (2 TT required), or Devs (1TT) are what immediately pops to mind. Any other ideas on integration?

Dreads + SR formation: Interesting but it would definitely have that negative synergy thing going due to the disparate roles of the units. I'd say it would need a dedicated formation for pricing if you think it's worth trying.

Neal - I like you drift, however how does landing craft feature in all that? I must say the Fury dreds, terminators and landing craft are a devastating package.

Big punch, but limited mobility thereafter. The embedded SRs would provide some much needed albeit relatively fragile mobility

Warning : This is just an idea, as I didn't read the last BA codex and don't know if they can still do that in the current 40K setting, and am not too familiar with E&C list either. I also realise that my vision of BA could a little dated due to this. I still think that 40K rules should be an inspiration rather than a model, so here it comes :

Why not Jump-pack less assault marines in the list ?
Assault marines charging in rhino transports are very BA to me (but I may be old school there), and I think a shock formation of 4 Assault marines stands (without jump packs) and 2 dreadnought with stormraven transport would look and feel very Blood Angels. The "3" version of it (6 Assault marines stand, 3 stormraven, 3 dreads) could possibly work too but might be unwieldy with the current importance of activation count.

Jump packs assault marines could be in too (as a formation or as an upgrade for jump-pack less assault marines), or possibly this role could be kept for the death company, however BA are not specially supposed to be lacking in jump-packs (even if they are portrayed as charging in rhino quite often).

Jump pack less Assault marines with rhino would also possibly make more sense as upgrade to other formations, but that is quite debatable of course.

Well, I realise you all may not like this, but I though I would share the idea.

A worthy topic of discussion, especially considering their potential synergy with Stormravens.

I'd like to hear other opinions.

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I think Blood Angels having jump-pack-less Assault Marines is a very bad idea; as a chapter they have slightly more jump-packers than others as their command and non-terminator veterans use them - jump packs are thematically appropriate and liked due to their winged primarch.

I definitely think the Thunderhawk Transporter needs to be in the list - Blood Angels are known to regularly use them to drop vehicles into hot Warzones and this is even in their W40k rules (the vehicles deep strike) not just the background. Epic allows us to do this properly and I think we should.

I think the best option would be a discounted cost for a Stormraven plus Dreadnought. 50pts for a Melta/Furioso Dreadnought sounds a bit too good.

Very good point.

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This is pretty old-school. I'm not sure how much it fits with the last couple iterations of the Blood Angels background fiction. With the exception of Tac-Death Company units, the nutters charging out of Rhinos seems to have been downplayed or removed.

I put "Raven Guard Assault" units in the RG list, though in that case they are more about having assault units that can planetfall in drop pods and the Caestus (which doesn't allow assault marines). Also, in at least one of the previous versions of the SM Codex, RG had the option to field all Tacticals with chainswords and pistols.

As far as function... same stats as assault marines, without Jump Pack, transportable as Tacs. 6 units + transport for 225 points. They seem to work okay. If you decide you want to use them we can just come up with a non-chapter-specific term.

I don't think we'll use them as Glyn's point is a good one.

However, I do think a generic name would be good as any Chapter can take Rhino-mounted Assault Marines these days, if they want.

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Yes, I understand the "winged" argument. Would you still think it problematic if such wingless assault marines were only available as a "stormraven shock formation" such as the one I was describing ? They would make sense in this context, and they would still having "wings" of a sort in the form of those stormravens ?

Tactical Assault Marines would be a fiting name for jumppackless Assault Marines.

Or Retaliators as this is the name for Astral Claws jumpackless Assault Marines specialised in boarding actions.

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