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Raven Guard
nealhunt
 Post subject: Raven Guard
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:06 pm 
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Edit:  Raven Guard 0.4
===========

Pursuant to the recent spate of SM chapter lists and recent conversations on the SG Board about Raven Guard, I thought I'd take a stab at it.  I had tried it before, but in the end simply didn't have enough to distinguish it from the stock SM list with its extensive drop/air assault abilities.

My current thoughts run to:

No "15cm" Garrison.  Scout units only.  Ravenguard are constantly short-handed and approach warfare with their Eldar-ish "Lightning Strike" doctrine.  They would never sit and hold a position if they could help it.  Scout formations would be infiltrators (lower case "i") deployed to guide in the main raiding force rather than "hold this hill" stuff.

Raven Guard Assault.  Essentially Assault Marine stats, without jump packs.  Able to use ground transport for a slightly bulkier ground assault formation and drop pods.

Raven Guard Heavy Scouts.  Something between regular Scouts and Tacticals.  They would not be available on their own, but as an upgrade to the Scout formations to make the formation heavier and reflect the fact that Raven Guard are capable of deploying heavier assets guerilla style.

RavenGuard Drop Pods.  A special rule that Raven Guard Drop Pod formations may reroll scatter dice.  This would give them a better chance of hitting where they plotted or keeping a favorable scatter.  It would even let them reroll a "hit" in an attempt to gain a favorable scatter if they needed it.

Other ideas:

0-1 restriction on Armor Formations.  I'm a bit torn on this.  In 40K they have the "Flesh over Steel" restriction which inhibits their use of vehicles, but I'm not so sure it really fits the background.  It would also limit the presence of Hunters.

Increased Imperial Navy support.  Would reflect additional reliance on orbital assets.  I don't know of any background that addresses this either way.  It just seems like it would make sense.  It would also allow better air support if Hunters end up lacking due to the armor formation restrictions.

Increased spacecraft abilities.  Pretty much a whole cloth idea.  Basically, just to reflect the same idea as above - increased reliance on orbital assets and to encourage drop armies.

Planetfall Speeders.  Pretty much speaks for itself, I think.




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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Raven Guard
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:17 pm 
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Raven Guard Heavy Scouts.: This would be essentially power armoured Veterans. Same stats as Tactical Marines with Scout and/or Infiltrator. Formation of 4 or 6 perhabs?

Armour restrictions: I would say 1 LandRaider/Predator/Whirlwind Detachmend per one or per two Assault, Devastator, Scout or Terminator Detachmend.

Dependant on Spacecraft support....difficult as only one Spacecraft is allowed per side. I would drop this.

Planetfall LandSpeeders: Yay! :D

Perhabs use of the Move-Shoot-Move rule from the Eldar too? Would fit a Guerilla warfare style. Or Move-Assault-Move instead?




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mageboltrat
 Post subject: Raven Guard
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:08 pm 
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They used to have to have foot troops mounted in rhinos or razorbacks in the old days... never been sure that flesh over steel is right. No garrison makes sense. It would make non transported troops pointless.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Raven Guard
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:52 am 
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I like it, in fact I can resurrect an idea from my 'file of marine ideas' (a selection of .txt files in a folder on my external hard drive).

You want hit and run? Lightning assault? Increased reliance on orbital assets. Forget Eldar and do it marine style(e).

Your basic troop type for this is either your footsloging assault troops, heavy scouts (marines in power armour with heavy bolters and no infiltrate, just scout) and maybe tacticals. Could do it with devs as well but probaly a bit of a waste firepower wise.

New orbital asset. (Somewhat inspired by the galatica planetdropping)
0-2 Marine escorts (the one with 4fp) 150? points
Spacecraft - escort
2bp orbital barrage
Transport, 1 thunderhawk, 8 units of marines, drop pods
Can arrive on any turn (though still decided pre battle along with targets and drop points), you may program multiple to arrive ?throughout the game, but only one per turn. May come in addition to an enemy spacecraft coming that turn. Do not stop an enemy spacecraft from arriving.

Extraction
Thunderhawks may fly in and collect units, after one turn all blast markers are removed from the formations picked up and they may re-insert or drop from an orbital asset.

Something like
Turn one, big drop from strike cruiser.
Thunderhawks fly in, collect 1-2 formations, fly out.
Turn three, small drop from escort.
Take the blitz/whatever, units previously extracted can return by thunderhawk or drop pod to the table.

Armour wise.
Drop all the formations. Have a the universal armour upgrade to the infantry (not scout) formations (1-2 preds, hunters, vindcators, maybe whirlwinds if balanced).
Limit armour to what a landing craft can carry as one load.
If you drop whirlwind formations perhaps use a Thunderhawk - turbo laser, bombs, rockets etc.

Heavy scout wise
Marines in power armour with heavy bolters and no infiltrate, just scout.

Biggest boost possible to a marine ground based mobile army though is to give them one extra rhino per formation. Currently all that happens is the enemy (say my siegemasters) kills one rhino in each formation, knowing either you slow down or abandon 1-2 units of troops (50-100 points).

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mageboltrat
 Post subject: Raven Guard
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:25 am 
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0-2 Scout formations made up of either 4 Assault Marines with scout or 4 Heavy scouts with 2 Scout Rhinos.

Raven guard always use transports so I like the idea of Rhinos in camo for deep reconnaissance.

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daemonkin
 Post subject: Raven Guard
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:44 am 
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Could we get larger formations of Assault Marines 6 or 8 strong rather than 4?

I just started painting my Epic Ravenguard over the Easter break in the same style as my 40k Ravenguard - very assault marine heavy with Dev back-ups and scouts to make up the troops choice!

D.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Raven Guard
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:10 pm 
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TRC:

I like the Frigate/Escort idea.  We used some low-orbit escorts in a scenario that worked very well.

I also considered a special rule to allow a Battle Barge to enter on Turn 2.

Extraction:  I think auto-BM removal is too much and I definitely don't want to get into the idea of an air extraction turning into a drop pod assault in the course of one turn.  I think that's a little too much abstraction.

Armor:  I'm still pondering.  I'm not too keen on the infantry-armor combo.  I know it's practical, but aside from the specific focus, I would like to keep them as close to dogmatic Codex as possible.

Heavy Scouts:  Pretty much what I was thinking.

===

Ratty:  Right now I'm thinking a standard Scout formation with the option to add 2 stands of heavy scouts with power armor (4+ save) and standard marine 4+FF.  That's a formation of up to 6 infantry, plus up to 6 Razorbacks, so it gets pretty hefty.

===

Daemonkin:  I'm resisting the temptation to make Ravenguard formations bigger for several reasons.

The Raven Guard was decimated during the Heresy and tried to manipulate their gene seed to speed recovery.  Instead, they introduced problems and mutations resulting in all sorts of problems with rejecting grafts and organs not working properly.  Their replacement rate is low and are chronically short-handed.

They are a guerilla and raiding force.  Small, fast groups are better at that.  Small groups can also be more easily extracted via air.

Both those make me want to cap the formations at 4-6 infantry stands.  I have even reconsidered the Heavy Scout idea (i.e. 6 stands in a Scout formation) several times, but I think it's a necessary exception in order to reinforce the character of the army.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Raven Guard
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:30 am 
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(nealhunt @ Apr. 17 2007,20:10)
QUOTE
I also considered a special rule to allow a Battle Barge to enter on Turn 2.

Extraction:  I think auto-BM removal is too much and I definitely don't want to get into the idea of an air extraction turning into a drop pod assault in the course of one turn.  I think that's a little too much abstraction.

Armor:  I'm still pondering.  I'm not too keen on the infantry-armor combo.  I know it's practical, but aside from the specific focus, I would like to keep them as close to dogmatic Codex as possible.

They are a guerilla and raiding force.  Small, fast groups are better at that.  Small groups can also be more easily extracted via air.

Re battlebarge.
Only tried it once, but that was for me (the battlebarge) to plot my attacks. Then for the opponent to deploy anywhere on his half of the table. Then play a normal length game. I lost horribly (I am useless with units who require armour saves to be made) but I think the idea is potentially better than the turn 2 thing.

Could even incorporate it into slow and steady - can only arrive turn three. if wish to arrive earlier the opponent may deploy anywhere on their half of the board.

Re Extraction.
Its hardly anything scientific, but I feel losing a unit for a whole turn (and the thunderhawk if you want to drop it) deserved some compensation. Also you are dropping at most 2 formations of 4 units each back onto the table (assuming they took no casualties which is unlikely considering they have to land, fight and bunch up afterwards so the extraction thunderhawk and touch them all to pick them up at the end of the turn) and there is the additional cost of this drop in purchasing another escort. Yes its powerful but to an extent it relies on the opponent to make it work.

Re armour
All the games to date show one overwealming thing. Razorbacks rule. 75 points for a tank is normally not as good as 75 points for 3 razors (hunters aside) unless they are already razored up and you have a specific rask in mind. And even if you took it for every eligable formation (how many tac and devs are you taking?) you have not much more than half a dozen peices of armour.

Re guerillas in the mist
How about splitting the cost of rhinos out from the formations and upping the cost of 'pods and 'hawks. Then allow either rhinos to be bought, including additional transports for a formation with is an immense boost and a good way of showing a light raiding force. Or allow sperate formations of transports. Bit radical, not sure if that would work. Alternatively have razorbacks bought in addition to the formations rhinos and scrap tanks all together. Then they are ultra light.

Incidentally the cap for everything should be the capacity of a lander. No point making formations bigger than that, tricky to insert and extract.

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Soren
 Post subject: Raven Guard
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:01 am 
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Their Hit and Run tactics remembers me more on Elysian Drop troop List with their teleport ability.

Suggestion: Give some formations (Jump troops, Tacticals) the teleport ability and restrict heavy and unhideable gear. (WW, Preds, Landraider etc)

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Raven Guard
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:31 pm 
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Chris:  I'm not following you on the extraction.  You can do an air extraction to prepare for an assault the following turn without either the transported formation or the air transport losing an action.  The only restriction is staying close enough together to board, which is not base contact, but 5cm from the aircraft.

Ground formation activates and ends its move withing ~6cm of a central point (the Thawk model does have some size to it).  Thawk does a Ground Attack, lands, loads, and fires from the ground as normal.  End phase disengage.  Next turn air assault.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Raven Guard
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:50 pm 
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Oh right this is a special extraction back into space. In essence this would be the sequence.
(I am assuming we are going with in the  overall rules changes that extracted units are removed fromt he game so this would be an exception.)

Turn 1 big drop attack.
End turn one extraction.
Turn two, army continues to hang on, thunderhawks fly around etc etc. The 1-2 formations extracted do nothing but loose all their bm's and climb into the drop pods.
Turn three. Escort flies overhead, you perform a mini drop onto whatever pre plotted target.

No idea how well it would work and I suspect its simply an alternate way of getting the blitz. But it does give a feel of a global system of hit and runs taking place, high tempo of operations etc.

Ah, something else from 40k (after seeing a model of it on ebay).

Scout bikes!

Also a boost to ground formations that wish to do a bit of assaulting would be a damocles. Could fit with the chapter, helps co-ordinate disparate groups, light armour etc.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Raven Guard
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 12:15 pm 
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If the Scouts loose their DropPods in the review of the Codex armylist is suggest keeping them for the RavenGuard.

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Blarg D Impaler
 Post subject: Raven Guard
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 6:37 pm 
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The following is from the Wikipedia entry for the Raven Guard:

After Istvaan V, the Legion had to rely on a reserve of older equipment, an imbalance that has remained over the ten thousand years since the Horus Heresy. They also have a shortage of armoured vehicles, relying primarily on infantry actions.


I'd say that this is indicative that they should be limited in their AV squadrons to 0-1 detachments, yet no further restrictions beyond that.

The Raven Guard's ability to have troops in the right position to wreak maximum havoc is legendary, and their mastery of rapid deployment and squad level tactics is required study for initiates of many other Chapters. However, their primary strength is their ease and method of deployment, allowing them to assess the situation, just before engaging.

Heavy use of Drop Pods, Thunderhawk Gunships, Thunderhawk Transports, and Landing Craft.  Since the Thunderhawk Transport can only carry 2 Rhinos (and Landing Craft can carry three sets of two Rhinos, and Thunderhawk Gunships carry eight stands of infantry) I'd suggest limiting the size of all infantry formations to 4 stands with no chance of Dreadnoughts or Land Raiders.  Planetfall Land Speeders makes excellent sense.  

The Raven Guard follow the Codex Astartes as closely as possible, mainly differing in the tactical application of their troops. There is a heavy dependence on Scout forces to act alone for long periods, and rapid response training is promoted more than usual.

I suggest that Raven Guard Scouts get the "Teleport" special ability added to them to represent deep cover Scouts emerging from their hiding places to strike.  Heavy Scouts of 4x Tacticals with Scout (and maybe Infiltrate) special abilities make sense.  A special rule for the Raven Guard might be that they can move double the normal distance for follow-up moves.

Raven Guard forces will commonly deploy from orbital drop pods, or via Thunderhawk gunships, in response to intelligence gathered by the Scouts. The Chapter's forte is covert operations, meaning they will only engage in a pitched battle if absolutely necessary. Vehicles are not often used, though it is common for Dreadnoughts to deploy using drop pods.

This supports a lot of what I have mentioned before in this post, plus I think it would be justified to create Dreadnought detachments that would be able to deploy via Drop Pod, representing some heavier firepower that can be drop-podded in with the dropped infantry.

Unless you want to go wacky and allow Raven Guard AV to be dropped via drop pods...

<<< --- >>>

I like The Real Chris' idea regarding Battle Barges.  I'd even go so far as to allow removing the "Slow and Steady" rule completely from Raven Guard Battle Barges, allow them to do their thing first turn even, but:

1) The opposing player can deploy *anywhere* on the board
2) The Raven Guard player cannot have any ground units on the board
3) The opposing player does not get credit for capturing any objectives on the Raven Guard player side of the board until turn 3.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Raven Guard
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 6:52 pm 
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@Blarg: I like your suggestions. But one point:

3) The opposing player does not get credit for capturing any objectives on the Raven Guard player side of the board until turn 3.

Thats redundant because you can't win a game until the end of turn 3 already :)

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Blarg D Impaler
 Post subject: Raven Guard
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 8:29 pm 
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(BlackLegion @ May 07 2007,13:52)
QUOTE
@Blarg: I like your suggestions. But one point:

3) The opposing player does not get credit for capturing any objectives on the Raven Guard player side of the board until turn 3.

Thats redundant because you can't win a game until the end of turn 3 already :)

Umm...  duhhh...   :O  :p  :confuse:

Now you get a glimpse into how often I play tournament games...

OK, so are the other points sufficient to compensate for no "Slow and Steady" or can somebody think of another idea?

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