Would it be worth including Deathwing Vehicles as an upgrade? Something like this:



It might be too fiddly (E:A units are already abstracted from their 40k counterparts, and variant units with different special rules are traditionally handled by giving them a separate profile), but it could be a way of showing how some of the 1st Company vehicles are harder to kill than regular versions.

I wouldn't be too worried about having enough of a weakness in the list, its already lost titans and imperial navy, and the other stuff in their is more flavourful rather than an significant boost to combat power.

Still, as you say get the basics done first, and I think your last few posts above are on the right track IMHO, but a list without AC does seem strange, also if you limit this list to only 1 or 2 tricks, that being a RW supported DW teleport and assault, the list might become a bit stale.

I'm sorry our batrep hasn't happened yet, two weeks of crap weather and poor health has scrubbed out weekly gaming.

I don't miss the aircraft, it's an interesting limitation to work under, and as long as the Hunters are priced to compensate, I'm not too worried about being overwhelmed by enemy airpower.

The Ravenwing/Deathwing combo is in my view the signature feature of the list; It's not trivial to pull off in a cost-effective manner (you have to target and destroy a fairly expensive formation to make it worthwhile), but it looks awesome when it does work.

Another "trick" of the list with the previous version of plasma was tactical formations that could get into crossfire positions and dish out 6 or more AT4+ shots (slow fire nothwithstanding). I thought that was quite adequate compensation for the lack of Warhound MW shots. With the current version of plasma, I'm not sure how to deal with massed 4+RA like Minervans. Any ideas?

Seriously, just put the aircraft in. Every Marine list has flyers and they're not uber- units. So long as the weaponry is close to a Thunderbolt/Stormtalon etc. there shouldn't be an issue. Given all the times TBs have been used across all lists, a slight change in aircraft name/stats won't be breaking the list.

I don't mean to say its a simple thing to get the RW/DW combo to work properly, but I what I meant to say was that the standard Marines, SW, blood angels etc have a range of play styles that can work for them, and tools to do different jobs. In the group I play in, titans and thunderbolts are very common additions to a SM list, as they add MW or good quantities of AT and the TBolts add reach and global AA.

Happy that the RW/DA combo is the signature of the list, and so it should be, but what else does the list do well? how does the DA list appeal to both the competitive gamer as well as the likes of us who will just collect them cause they are cool?

Ref the tacticals, a tactical unit throwing out 6x AT4 at 30cm is ok, but they're are much more cost effective ways to get AT firepower, such as a predator annihilator sqn. Again, in the standard SM list, a reaver or warhounds can often do a good deal of damage to tank coy and similar. Even with the old stats the tactical formation will average less than 1 kill if they fire on a 4+ RA unit (12.5% chance to kill), though I take your point that they were still a much greater threat to vehicles than standard tacticals hitting on 6s.

As a test of the list, I'm putting this together for a trial next week. The intent being a heavy RW/DW force supported by some fast moving standard marines.

3000pt Dark Angels:
Deathwing + 2 extra DW + Grand Master = 625
Deathwing + Librarian = 400
Ravenwing Attack Sqn = 350
Ravenwing Attack Sqn = 350
Ravenwing Spt Sqn = 200
Ravenwing Spt Sqn + 2 Typhoons = 250
Tactical Det + 2x Hunter = 400
Assault + Chaplain = 225
Thunderhawk = 200

I'm genuinely worried the RW will get picked apart by AC and arty in turn 1 but after that they should be safe as the DW will be in the mix. The assault and thunderhawk will pick off stragglers etc but there is a distinct lack of ranged shooting, so it will be up to the DW to do all the heavy lifting. I guess I could drop a RW attack Sqn for a unit of predators and another hunter? Thoughts?

If you were to go ahead with this AOC, can I suggest some changes to BL earlier suggested stats?

This was BL's earlier suggestion:
Dark Angels Nephilim Jetfighter
Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight
Aircraft Fighter 5+ n/a n/a
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Avenger Mega-bolter 45cm 2 x AP5+/AT6+/AA5+ Fixed Forward Arc
Twin heavy Bolter 30cm AP4+/AA5+ Fixed Forward Arc
Darksword Missiles 30cm AT4+/AA4+ Fixed Forward Arc

I'd say its close to the mark but I'd tone down some stats/ranges a little to start with, something like:

Dark Angels Nephilim Jetfighter
Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight
Aircraft Fighter 5+ n/a n/a
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Avenger Mega-bolter 30cm AP3+/AT5+/AA5+ Fixed Forward Arc *
Twin heavy Bolter 30cm AP4+/AA5+ Fixed Forward Arc
Darksword Missiles 30cm AT6+/AA5+ Fixed Forward Arc **

Why:
*seems 45cm+ on AC is generally reserved for bomber types, and a single to hit for the AMB, means it doesn't become much better on an intercept, and it won't kill bulk infantry on a lucky pass.
**whilst it has a bank of missiles, individually they suck in 40k, and a single pass/engagement will be unlikely to see all 6 missiles launched, also a starting AA4+ is generally considered a bit rude so if your going to add the nephilim, I'd start low. If we assume and avg of 2 missiles fired per pass then, against a vehicle, 2 missiles are less effective than a single auto cannon - hence AT6+

Cost & summary of proposed stats:
Tbolts are 175 in SM, this has 1+ initiative, a better save, 0.17 less avg AT hits, 0.17 more avg AP hits, and .66 more AA hits at 15-30cm and 0.33 more AA at 0-15cm range. Therefore, I'd suggest 250pts for a pair as a start, and potentially remove the AA from the AMB if it's shown to be too good at interceptions.

You could also perhaps reduce the heavy bolter to 15cm for a more even spread of range to help with a possible cost reduction.... I'd even suggest AA6+ on the missiles.

I think those stats are way too good AA - 4 shots each, one of which hitting on a 3+ and 2 at 45cm is far better than other races' interceptors. Even ortron's suggestions leave it with very good stats. In a list that currently has no interceptors at all, I think it'd be better targeted as a drop-in thunderbolt replacement with similar stats - much easier to balance that way. Aircraft stats are generally pretty flexible (i.e. they are tweaked for balance reasons) so this should be no problem.

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If we drop the AA shot from the AMB that would put it more on par with the TB in terms of fire power, however the community's fear of aircraft seems a little OTT every time a new aircraft gets suggested. Simply increase the cost of they are that good.

Ref army list, yes AOC, you're pretty much on the money, I was thinking of the thawk dropping off the assault turn 1 and on standby for terminator extraction late turn 2.

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Thanks for the review of the list, I take your point on the Thawk, though i have a really bad habit of rolling double 1s for their saves and they always die on the way in, even to crap AA like ork flak wagons so now they tend to carry less in the first drop, but I do like the devs as an addition.

Ref the speeders, sorry, I assumed you could take all speeder options now, and like the standard list assumed you'd pay +25 points for each Typhoon. I assumed the tornado was a free swap though with the standard speeder. Is this correct or are you only allowing the tornado and standard.. (please say all)

I like your ideas with the iron wing, I'm a bit short on predators it seems.. I probably wouldn't take the vindicator option much though as your paying a premium for them in this list. Still a 6 strong unit of annihilators would throw down some serious AT, likewise the destructors would make a good supporting fire unit, definitely something to think about.

Ref the scouts, have you had much luck with multiple units of scouts? I know the scout heavy list was all the rage a while ago but I'm dubious about investing much time in multiple units, I generally take 1 for screening and flank protection but 800pts worth of scouts limits other choices, still the DA ones are all snipers so that might increase their usefulness.

Thanks for your thoughts.