The last poll on Tacs showed about 70% in favor of changing Tacs to 275. After discussion with the SM champion and the NetERC, we are okay with taking Tacs in the Codex list to 275 points.

However, doing so raises questions. We need to talk through them before making a change. Hence, I'm starting a thread to discuss "what if" we do that.

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First and foremost, SM armies are pretty competitive as it is. While Tacs don't feature strongly in the Warhound/Thawk tourney build, this is still a buff for the list. What do people think are the consequences of such a change might be?

Second, as a corollary to the above, aside from the Warhound critical change, there doesn't seem to be much support for any SM nerfs. Should there be a new round of price discussion based on the "what if" of 275 point Tacs?

Third, how does this ripple through the other SM lists? To what extent is it okay to have the same formation priced differently across the lists? There are other lists that are more dependent on Tacticals and lists where the Tacticals have additional options which make them more useful as "line" formation than in the Codex list. The most extensive is the Black Templars list, where the Tacs are the only core formation and there will necessarily be ~1 per thousand points and this is a substantial change.

I'm a big believer in context, but Tacticals are the iconic SM unit and they are really an all-rounder formation. I have a hard time thinking there would be solid justification for disparate pricing.

I would be fine with dropping Tacticals to 275pts in the Blood Angels list, as they're even less appealing in that list at 300pts than they are in the Codex list.


As to other nerfs, I'm still fine with increasing the points on Warhound Titans for Marine armies only to 300pts. This would leave the total points cost of most Marine builds only lightly changed, but would make multi-tactical armies appeal a bit more.

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I'm not sure this is entirely an issue. While it's a buff for the list, as long as the Tacs are still fairly costed it won't make that much of a difference - it may change the choices people make, but it shouldn't change the actual balance.

At the absolute worst case scenario, people get a 25-or-50 point discount on their current lists. Best case scenario, people start taking more Tacticals and fewer Terminators/Devastators/War-Goats.



Possibly.



I think that's really up to the individual list champions to work out for themselves. Always has been to some extent.

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Admittedly, I like to build around a battle company and I can't think of a time I've gone without two Tacticals in any of my lists. I think their strength is in their staying power and area denial. What they lack in firepower they make up for by being dead hard to shift from a position.

A 25 point drop will see an extra 50 points in my list. That will most likely mean an extra character for me, which will probably go in the Tactical company without the SC. Being able to go from 5BMs down to 0 on a rally is going to make a tough formation that much tougher.

That's the effect I see this having on my games. I don't think the change is necessary given how well Marines usually do for me. Obviously we'll test it if the NetEA puts it forward but I don't think its needed in our local games.

Hena, what were your thoughts on it?

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I tend to take a tactical as a BTS, if you take the list I've used in the last 2 tournaments (6 wins 1 loss)

Tacticals+SC+hunter+razorback
devastators
scouts+2 razorbacks
scouts
land speeders
terminators+chaplain
warhound
warhound
thunderhawk
thunderhawk
thunderbolts

I would either take an extra razorback (with the devs) or drop the tac razorback and add a razorback to the devs. If the warhound price increase happens then it just means only 25pts to find therefore I probably wouldn't drop the tacs for devs but rather drop a razorback

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I'm very pleased to see this accepted at last

I concur that Warhounds going up to 300 for Marines would be a good idea (plus either worse critical). As a result a player taking two Tacticals and two single Warhounds would see no change, while a player going Warhound heavy and/or Tactical light would see a small increase and have to cut something.

IMO Black Templars and other space marine lists should very probably adopt the reduced price also, but it's up to the individual Army Champions and their players. If there are compelling list dynamic reasons not to in a particular list it's fine to leave them at 300.

The 25 discount will probably end up translating in one less sniper and one more character in most SM armies. Often a player is left with 25 points and dumps it into the sniper scout, so that's the effect I see. Whether it is a justified change I don't know. Maybe? Life will go on without it, I can tell you that.

The disparity between lists is less of a concern. Points have always been IMO a flexible characteristic of any army list and changes are sometimes needed to bring a list into balance. I'm not familiar with the SM variants but I could imagine a situation where a 25 point change to Tacticals would create a nominal bump to vanilla SMs, but a sizable change to a SM list where Tacticals are more prevalent. Most players are sophisticated enough to understand that though and I don't see it being a whining point.

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For me personally I have always found a single formation of Tactical marines to be a must in any army and they have always performed very well. I dont really see the need for any drop - but if it was implemented at the same time as a points increase/critical change to the warhounds and changing the half blast marker stuff to minimum of 1 it would probably be OK.

It is for this reason (That a single, and only a single, formation is worth taking) that I voted for 275pts personally. At 300pts, they're only useful in the meta capacity of Supreme Commander bodyguard. At 275pts, they might well be useful in having 2-3 formations, considering the 50-75pts saved overall (Enough for a character, or a Dreadnought, plus a Razorback).

I did vote for 275pts with the assumption that we would see the Warhound Titan nerfed (worse critical, probable points rise to 300pts), however, as preserving external balance is just as important as improving internal balance.

As Steve and Joe note, Tacticals to 275pts and Warhounds to 300pts will make little difference to the average tourney list as they stand right now, but IMO it will also open up the possibility of that 2-3-more Tactical formation army.

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I am all for Tacticals at 275

I am also a big supporter of 300 point Warhounds for the Marine list.

At this point I am unsure whether the change in Tactical costings will roll down to the Imperial Fists list - more play tests (and new discussions) are required for me to make a fair judgement on this.

So in conclusion, I say make both changes and let's get on with it.

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Are the SM variants experiencing the same supposed infrequency of Tacticals that the regular list is?

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I think the real question is whether the variants are getting enough play tests to make a decision or provide a big enough sample to decide from.

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Well for Salamanders i always build my armies around a Battle Company. So i always have 2 Tactical formations and one is usually pimped up to be the BTS and/or my SC.
Salamanders need this big formation to soak up damage. But i don't think an -25pts discount would together with 300pts single Warhounds would change anything significant.

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The Space Wolves are a little more difficult but no big deal. Grey Hunters were based on Tacticals (with a price drop) but they'll stay at 300 for now. SW don't get Warhounds so that's not part of the equation anyway.

Pure Space Marines are the one army I haven't made (multiple!) variant army lists for, so this has no affect on me. *laugh*

I'm still in favour of the price drop for Tacticals and highly in favour of the price increase of Marine-based Warhounds to 300 points... then, at least, they're paying for that SR5!